They're Really Not Red!

Every now and then someone posts about an albino eclipse gecko they have that doesn't seem to have red eyes. The responses are usually that of course the gecko has to have red eyes, the eyes are probably dark red and they just look black.

I have 2 eclipse albinos, clutchmates, and I've looked with a magnifying glass and their eyes are not red. Is it possible that there is a difference between red eyed albino eclipses and non red eyed albino eclipses?

Is it possible that the eclipse gene could be connected to a true leucism? Wikipedia has this to say about leucism:

"A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in both the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) and iris, albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, most leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes. This is because the melanocytes of the RPE are not derived from the neural crest, instead an outpouching of the neural tube generates the optic cup which, in turn, forms the retina. As these cells are from an independent developmental origin, they are typically unaffected by the genetic cause of leucism."

Also:
More common than a complete absence of pigment cells is localized or incomplete hypopigmentation, resulting in irregular patches of white on an animal that otherwise has normal colouring and patterning. This partial leucism is known as a "pied" or "piebald" effect; and the ratio of white to normal-coloured skin can vary considerably not only between generations, but between different offspring from the same parents, and even between members of the same litter. This is notable in horses, cows, cats, dogs, the urban crow[2] and the ball python[3] but is also found in many other species.

(Eclipse geckos are known for white patches, primarily on the feet, tail and head)

A word about the geckos in question (with eye photos below):
Mother: patternless stripe Mack snow Tremper albino het eclipse (produced Total eclipse offspring with Mack snow het eclipse last season)
Father: Banded Tremper albino born in 2004 (before eclipse gene had been identified) who has produced snake eyed and eclipse eyed geckos when paired with eclipses, so may be het for eclipse

Here are the pictures. One gecko has 2 snake eyes and the other has one eclipse eye and one eye that is nearly eclipse, with just a bit of white:









What does everybody think?

Aliza

Instantly makes me wonder about the eclipsed eye in a Blizzard. I'm not a genetic guru by any means. I am always learning. Wiki says the eclipsed or snake eye just pops up randomly in a Blizzard. Perhaps there is something more to it that has yet to be proved out.

Is it probably snow, because snow seems to do crazy things to the eyes I have a mack raptor who's eyes I also believe are black snake eyes

The geckos were hatched yellow, not white (I have one snow Tremper from the same pairing that looks totally different) so I'd be really surprised if they're snows.

Aliza

This has made me read several articles. It's VERY interesting to actually discuss. So from what I read the main differences would be eye pigment but leucistic people and animals also have some differences in skin tone and do not have pink/red eyes as they would in albanism.
" Also, in any given species that has xanthophores (essentially a type of non-melanin "pigment package"), you would still have a little bit of yellow pigmentation in albinos, which could be missing in leucistic individuals of the same species. This is why an albino python has a good deal of yellow on it."
I copied that from an article I was reading last night. Maybe I'm already stating what is already known but it somehow seems to make more sense to me. So with that being said would a Raptor still be considered a Raptor if it has black eyes?

Can you post full body shots plus baby pics? I have some eclipse who people automatically think are raptors by the color, but they are definitely not. Other than that, I just don't know. I have two radar enigmas who have started to get spots so dark that they look black. It can be very confusing. But I've never seen true black eyes on an albino before. They're always just a very dark red.

I only have pictures from last month, but they don't look that different from when they hatched:





Kristi, the mother is a gecko you sold me a few years ago that you got from Oregon Geckos. It was listed as a Montanus Raptor, though she turned out to be het raptor (and unexpectedly a Mack snow).

I'm really sure these eyes aren't dark red, but are truly black.

Other thoughts and comments welcome. It's been awhile since we've had a good quality morph/genetics discussion!

Aliza

My mind doesn't automatically jump to leucism. They basically have to be albino with both parents being Tremper albino, and while I suppose they could be albino and leucistic at the same time, not sure the albino wouldn't wipe out the eye pigment.

More likely would be some sort of gene interaction. The effects of another gene allele could be allowing the production of dark pigment in the eyes, for example by blocking the effect of the albino mutation or by triggering dark pigment production. Would be interesting to see if we can start tracking occurrences of this and trying to determine which additional trait causes it to happen.

If you shine a light on the back side of the head meaning from the opposite eye you are viewing then you will likely be able to more easily see the red in the eye in the eclipsed area. If the dark area is truly black then the pupil will show red while the eclipsed area stays black. The eyes (while very dark) to me still seem to have a ruby like tent to them. I have seen RAPTORS that have normal Albino eye meaning the no visual eclipsing of the eye while still visually expressing the Eclipse gene but I have never seen this the other way around (and Albino eye with black pigment)

I don't like saying that something is not possible simply because there are anomalies that can pop out even in the mutations we claim to know the most about as a hobby. That being said, if an animal is a visual Albino then by definition it will not produce any dark pigmentation because the melanin synthesis pathway is disrupted. Of course with different types of Albino (T-, T+) some pigment can be produced but never "full strength" or black pigment. So regardless of what other genes are mixed into the bowl, we can never add melanin back into a true visual Albino.

Definitely try Brad's suggestion.

It is really strange. Maybe it has something to do with montanus added, but it really shouldn't. All the montanus raptors I bought had red eyes. Some darker than others.

I did find that quite a few of the montanus I bought ended up being mack, too. It must be a hard one to tell when they're babies. I actually find that with a lot of the mack trempers. The nice orange ones don't really look mack.

Shining the light was a great idea. Of course, it's not easy getting an albino to keep its eyes open while a light is shined anywhere near it, but I did manage, and the eyes do look ruby. Then, just to be sure, I tried it with a non-albino eclipse and the eyes stayed black! This is a great test for those cases where the eyes just don't look red.
What's still interesting about the situation is the older male father who was carrying the eclipse gene before it was known that there was one.

Aliza

I'm still confused by this. I did find this last night and forgot to share. It's obviously pretty old, but one line caught my attention. Guide to Leopard Gecko Morphs an

This is the line: Having red eyes is not a requirement in Leopard Geckos to be considered an albino.

That's the first time I've heard that. I remember Paul. I bought some geckos from him when he was getting out of geckos and I was getting into them. So that had to be 7-8 years ago.

Kristi23 said:

This is the line: Having red eyes is not a requirement in Leopard Geckos to be considered an albino.

Click to expand...

This would allude to whether the specific albinism would be T+ or T-. If it is a T+ albinism, then the eyes could still contain melanin. But that being said, we do not know which gecko albinisms are T+/- at this point.

Glad that mystery is solved then!

I'll admit having melanin reemerge in a gecko with the mutation that causes albinism wouldn't be likely, but I like to keep an open mind. Since albinism is simply a broken melanin production pathway, there could theoretically be a restoration of melanin production if another gene mutation fixed the break or prevented the problem from manifesting.

geckolabs said:

This would allude to whether the specific albinism would be T+ or T-. If it is a T+ albinism, then the eyes could still contain melanin. But that being said, we do not know which gecko albinisms are T+/- at this point.

Click to expand...

I agree, and it makes it even weirder. Like I said, that quote from a breeder is at least 7-8 years old. I've never seen anyone else say that. I always look at albinos as lacking black and that includes the eyes. (in leopard geckos)

I do have to radar enigmas who have albino eyes, but they have gotten a very dark gray, almost black color that has been showing up in spots on the body. I did a search and found quite a few like that from other breeders. Albinos can definitely be tricky.

indyana said:

Since albinism is simply a broken melanin production pathway, there could theoretically be a restoration of melanin production if another gene mutation fixed the break or prevented the problem from manifesting.

Click to expand...

Albinism isn't necessarily limited to disrupted production of melanin, but also its distribution- which are two separate pathways. So while it is unlikely to have melanin arise in albino animals, in a T+ albino, it is perfectly feasible and the location of melanin would likely be random, since the distribution process is what it broken in said animals.

This is one of the radar enigmas. Only had some brown when hatching, but you can see that the brown has changed. Albino eyes though.

Wow, that's neat, Kristi. You know, I saw a W/Y Bell on Facebook a while ago that had extremely dark markings, to the point where I questioned whether it was an albino. Matt Baronak stepped in and confirmed that W/Y can cause albinos to have dark markings. Enigma and W/Y have very similar effects on appearance, so perhaps it's the Enigma that's causing the brown to darken up like that?

Edit: Found the post on the Gecko Nation Facebook group. It was one of Jessica Smith's babies she posted a photo of in July.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=593545654092176&set=gm.296934213817916&type=1

indyana said:

Wow, that's neat, Kristi. You know, I saw a W/Y Bell on Facebook a while ago that had extremely dark markings, to the point where I questioned whether it was an albino. Matt Baronak stepped in and confirmed that W/Y can cause albinos to have dark markings. Enigma and W/Y have very similar effects on appearance, so perhaps it's the Enigma that's causing the brown to darken up like that?

Edit: Found the post on the Gecko Nation Facebook group. It was one of Jessica Smith's babies she posted a photo of in July.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=593545654092176&set=gm.296934213817916&type=1

Click to expand...

It is something weird like that. If you go to the Gecko Etc website and look at available radar enigmas, quite a few of them have the same blackish markings.

Some of his are incredibly dark spotted... looks as though I'll have to be more cautious about the "no black" albino rule!