Understanding patternless to eclipse...?

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Hey everyone

im breeding leo's as a hobby and i want to try and understand what is going on

I have a male leopard gecko who i can guess an aptor. But not exactly. What i know is that a true aptor is a patternless stripe- stripe x reverse sripe.

I am breeding this male to a tremper female.
But getting only revese stipes bandeds or jungles. No stripes, and that is the second season (the male is breeding with another hypo het tremper female and from there too i get only reverse strips)
So i can guess he is a super hypo reverse stripe right? I didnt saw striped leo's at the breeder i bought him from (so he probably didnt have a patternless stripe in this breeding?)

Now beside that, i read about eclipse. Comes out somtimes from breeding two patternless stipes.
Last season i got one snake eyed (from the tremper female) and now i got another one. if he isn't a patternless and she isn't a patternless, how did i get a snake eye? Which is eclipe.
Another question is, does a snake eye must show the traits of an eclipse? White legs white tail tip and white nose. because mine isn't.

Thank you very much!!

the baby with the snake eye

the father

That is the mother

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Neon Aurora · Jun 27, 2016

If the parents are both banded, your chances of getting patternless stripe is not very high. One of my pairs (tangerine het eclipse x rainwater albino eclipse) are both banded and I got one stripe out of 8 babies so far, and no patternless stripe. So it's luck of the draw with the patterns, but you have a higher chance of getting reverse stripes if you breed animals that are reverse stripe.

Since you got eclipse babies, both of the parents are probably het eclipse. I'm a little thrown off by the lack of eclipse markers as well, but that eye certainly does look eclipse. Some babies don't have as strong markers as others. I do see the white feet in yours, but not the white nose.

That baby doesn't look albino, which means you have two different strains of albino and should not pair them again and sell the babies as strictly pet only.

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Neon Aurora said:
If the parents are both banded, your chances of getting patternless stripe is not very high. One of my pairs (tangerine het eclipse x rainwater albino eclipse) are both banded and I got one stripe out of 8 babies so far, and no patternless stripe. So it's luck of the draw with the patterns, but you have a higher chance of getting reverse stripes if you breed animals that are reverse stripe.

Since you got eclipse babies, both of the parents are probably het eclipse. I'm a little thrown off by the lack of eclipse markers as well, but that eye certainly does look eclipse. Some babies don't have as strong markers as others.

That baby doesn't look albino, which means you have two different strains of albino and should not pair them again and sell the babies as strictly pet only.

Nono lol, the hatchling is a tremper albino,and all of its siblings. I never cross breeds im against that as well.I know quite a bit about morphs and leo's in general, just this topic confused me. The father isnt a banded, for sure.
Either a "super hypo" due to the lack of pigment even thogh it isn't black and reverse stripe or a patternless stripe.

Ill upload a pic so youll see the whole body of the hatchling. And identify him as tremper allso lol.
he has no markers at all. Whats not making alot of sense is, if they are both het, there will be more than 1 eclipse/snake eye in 8 hatchlings. I guess its not a different gene from eclipse, but it popped up wierdly and no marks of the babies, not the one before either.

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Neon Aurora · Jun 27, 2016

Perhaps it is the lighting of the pictures, but that hatchling really doesn't look albino to me at all. I apologize if it is just the lighting and I jumped to conclusions, it wasn't my intention to belittle your knowledge. I suppose when you said that you guess he is an APTOR, I assumed you didn't know for sure what he is. I'd love to see a clear picture of the non-eclipse eye if you are willing to post one.

Without seeing the tail of the father, I couldn't really say if he's banded or not. Just because he is super hypo doesn't mean he isn't also banded. All leos hatch with some type of pattern. In any case, the mother is banded and that will decrease your chances of getting stripes or patternless stripes. Posting a full body picture of him would help clear that up.

As I said, some eclipse hatchlings have stronger markers than others. One eclipse out of 8 hatchling is a pretty small number, but I got only 2 eclipses out of 8 hatchlings (from a het eclipse x eclipse, so 50% chance), so it certainly isn't impossible. If both animals are het eclipse, you only have a 25% chance of eclipses, so it makes sense you wouldn't have very many. I'm not sure anyone can tell you except for the original breeder of the parents why you got an eclipse from this pairing. I believe there was just another thread where someone got unexpected eclipse babies very recently, so it is not all that uncommon. It might be something to speak to the breeder of the parents about. The real test would be to breed that one with an eclipse and see what you get.

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Thanks for the reply, im not angry for you thinking so, it does sound like it. But both parents are tremper, all the hatchlings from that pairing are allso tremepr, ill upload some pics for fun

. I just incubate them in low temps all the incubation time, they grow to be quite darker than usual (youll see a jungle i hatched last season) i like it better

On the topic of pattern, i know he is not banded because im getting a very big amount of hatchlings that are reverse stripe, and allmost no jungles-the tendency to reverse stripe from him pairing with banded female shows me he has somthing with reverse stripe. Allso it fits the idea of the breeder to may not see his reverse stripe because it might be not very visable and selling it as an aptor. So i assume he is a reverse stripe super hypo.The reason why this eclipse was so strange to me 1-he seem like a reverse stripe to me because of his offsprings and because i havn't really heard of eclipse where i live, so the gene might got unlocked somwhere along the way - mybe a patternless stripe that are "het eclipse" or by another way i dont know. and passed to the parents, they are somewhat related. That now makes sense when i think about it. Of them
being het eclipse.. Thank you again

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Neon Aurora · Jun 27, 2016

EDIT: Ignore this post. Need eye pictures.

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Ill post another pic of his other eye (which is normal). Btw the other hatchling allso had it in 1 eye, but i wont be home for a few days now...
This is the jungle tremper and the fathers tail (if youll ne able to see it, its not a banded tail. And i dont know why all the photos are sideways..

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Neon Aurora · Jun 27, 2016

Do you think you could any eye pictures you have? That would really help confirm. They really don't look albino to me, but the eye color would really be the determining factor.

The male's tail does suggest he is some kind of stripe.

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Look ill show you a comparison. They are albino

These are non albino

And now, these are

Look at the group

Only 1 isn't tremper and thats the female hypo(kinda dark colored) . I can bet you they are tremper lol

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orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Actually, that dark color is what i like, and i have a really close eye pic of the male so it will prove him. Can you agree the female is tremper?

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Neon Aurora · Jun 27, 2016

I agree with both parents being albino. I can't agree with them being tremper as opposed to a different strain of albino just by looking at them.

I sincerely apologize if I've made a big mess of nothing. They just look much too dark to me. The pictures you posted above are pretty clear. I would still be interested in eye pictures of the hatchlings. Maybe someone more experienced than myself can chime in.

I do hope that I cleared up your original question rather than just starting a debate about your breeders. =P

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Lol Thats fine no apologize needed

thanks for helping

both being tremper is clear to me, the babies allso are albino-tremper , in reality its dark brown or somtimes bright that turn dark, i really dig that dark brown on the yellow/ornge instead of the kind of white creamy color, seem colorless to me

many think that brighter is more beautiful, i dont you actually made me think good on the genetics. So im now pretty sure hes reverse stripe super hypo.
The only thing thats hard to understrand is where did the eclipse came from and why doesnt it has even the smallest white markers.

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Neon Aurora · Jun 27, 2016

It's not uncommon for eclipse to pop up where albinos are concerned (especially tremper). Even animals from the most reputable of breeders sometimes have some unexpected het. I imagine it comes from mistakes in record keeping or from not test breeding thoroughly enough before labeling an albino "not het eclipse".

This is one of my eclipses from last year:

You can see a bit of a white nose and a bit of white on the feet, but the markers are very minor compared to a lot of other eclipses. It took me a long time to decide this one is eclipse, but I'm fairly positive she is. I think there is just genetic variation in the markers, just like there are in any aspect of a leopard gecko. Some have really crazy markers (total eclipses often have almost half their head white and all of their legs up to the body), some barely any. Yours I do see white feet like mine above. It's minor, but I think the white on the feet goes just a little beyond a normal hatchling when compared to your other non-eclipses.

orchamo · Jun 27, 2016

Thats a cute one

thanks for the info! I might even keep it and breed it back to the father to see if he is a het

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acpart · Jun 27, 2016

Here's my take on things:
albino: I have hatched some really dark trempers; as long as it's dark brown and clearly not black I can believe they could be trempers
eclipse: I have a male Tremper hatched in 2004 (before there was much knowledge about eclipses) who produces snakes eyes and eclipses when paired with an eclipse or het eclipse, so I guess he is a previously unknown het. I think it's easy to miss a het. It's also possible that one or both of the parents was something like "50% het" and it hadn't been proven either way.
Stripe: It seems pretty clear to me, after the last 10 years of breeding, that if one parent is a stripe/jungle, or has a parent that was a stripe/jungle, the offspring can have striping anywhere on the continuum (aberrant, jungle, stripe, reverse stripe, patternless). I don't think it's known yet whether breeding for any more specific stripe pattern is an option.

Aliza

orchamo · Jun 28, 2016

Thank you very much aliza!

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DrCarrotTail · Jun 28, 2016

The eclipse gene was discovered by breeding striped geckos to reverse striped geckos. These two traits tend to cancel each other out so babies tend to look patternless and are referred to as patternless stripes. Hypo is a totally different gene. Patternless hypos come from line breeding geckos with fewer and fewer spots until there were none. When you breed an eclipse animal to a non-eclipse animal stripes and reverse stripes tend to pop out as the babies get one or the other sets of genes from the eclipse parent. These stripes, as Aliza said, can be full, partial, etc as they stem from polygenetic traits. The stripes don't necessarily come along with an eclipse het but they often do. If you're breeding het eclipse to het eclipse the stripes could potentially be passed on without the eclipse gene.

orchamo · Jun 28, 2016

Thanks for the reply, but i have got a question if i may,i know patternless stripes are treated as het eclipse if bred to another patternless stripe. is it het eclipse only when bred to patternless stripe?
If i breed patternless stripe (het eclipse) to a normal leo, will the babies be het eclipse? Or the patternelss het comes only when bred to patternless stripe? Thank you!

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DrCarrotTail · Jun 28, 2016

An animal is eclipse when it shows the eclipse eye trait and has the genetics for eclipse (some other morphs commonly show solid portions of their eyes like blizzards). The eclipse gene and the patternless stripe genes are independent. Not all patty stripe, stripe or reverse stripe geckos have eclipse genes or hets for eclipse genes. You need to go by genetic records to determine if an animal is eclipse or possibly het, not the phenotype (the way the animal looks - i.e. stripe or no stripe).

If you breed an animal you know to be het eclipse (based on genetic records) to a normal the babies will have a 50% chance of being het for the eclipse trait.

Patternless stripe, reverse stripe, and stripe are polygenic traits. An animal cannot be het for any of them. Some babies may show striping but it will be caused by a melding of genetic traits not a single allele gene.

acpart · Jun 28, 2016

I did spend a number of years breeding striped geckos with no eclipse genes (except for the albiino male I mentioned above, and I didn't know he was het eclipse at the time) and got lots of stripes of varying types with no eclipse. I don't know that stripe (or patternless stripe) and eclipse are still genetically intertwined.

Aliza

Understanding patternless to eclipse...?

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