Bell Enigma x Blizzard poss. het MS = ???

LZRDGRL · Jul 4, 2008

Hello,

I've tried to run the Genetics Wizard, but I don't understand the results.

Can anybody help me? I want to know whether it would make sense to breed my Bell Enigma male to my Blizzard possible het Mack Snow female.

The Genetics Wizard gives me this:

Homozygous enigma, Homozygous bell,
x
Homozygous blizzard, Het. mack snow,
________________________________________
50% Het. enigma, Het. bell, Het. blizzard,
50% Het. enigma, Het. bell, Het. blizzard, Het. mack snow,

Does it mean they would all look normal and be hets for the other things??? I thought Enigma is always dominant, and there are no het Enigmas...

If you know, please answer...

Chrissy

Sandra · Jul 4, 2008

This is why I always insist on using the word heterozygous and homozygous the right way...

There are heterozygous animals of all kinds of mutations. The difference is the way the mutation shows itself in the heterozygous.

In recessive mutations (blizzard, albinism), the normal allele dominates the mutated allele in the heterozygous, so its appearance is normal.

In co-dominant/incomplete dominant mutations (Mack snow), no allele dominates the other fully so the heterozygous looks like a blend of both parents. For example, Mack snows are heterozygous for super snow (an intermediate form between normal and super).

In dominant mutations (enigma), the mutated allele dominates the normal allele in the heterozygous, so the heterozygous fully shows the mutation too. Most (if not all) enigmas on the market are heterozygous, because you don't need to cross an enigma to another enigma to get enigmas. The difference would be that if you had an homozygous enigma, and crossed it to a normal, you would get 100% enigma-looking offspring (all would be het enigma).

So you would get (if the blizzard turns out to be Mack snow too):

25% het enigma, het Mack snow, het blizzard, het Bell (Mack snow enigmas het blizzard and Bell)
25% het enigma, het blizzard, het Bell (Enigmas het blizzard and Bell)
25% het Mack snow, het blizzard, het Bell (Mack snow het blizzard and Bell)
25% Normal, het blizzard, hel Bell

In my humble opinion, it is not an interesting cross. If the blizzard doesn't turn out to be Mack snow, you would end up with all normals and normal enigmas, het for traits that don't seem to mix well (I don't know if it's just bad luck or they don't really mix well, but you don't see many Bell blazing blizzards around, do you?). Also, I think that projects with multiple hets are for people with lots of room and patience. I would buy a pretty Bell hybino to get some nice Bell albinos and Bell enigmas (or a Mack snow Bell to produce Mack snow Bell enigmas, Bell enigmas and Bell albinos if you are into Macks) and in the meanwhile prove out the blizzard with a Mack snow. But that's only me.

Halley · Jul 4, 2008

Okay two problems right of the bat. One your enigma is most likely not homozygous. This would require an enigma x enigma breeding. There is really no reason to do this as it is a dominate trait. Your bell enigma most likely came from an enigma, het bell x bell pairing, or a Enigma bell x bell pairing.

Then you cannot be het for mack snow. If you have the mack gene, you can see it. So there is no het, and definitely not possible het.

Here are the definitions I wrote, to help explain the basics of genetics

Chromosomes
Chromosomes are stands of DNA, which contain all of the genetic information needed to build, repair, and maintain an organism. Leopard geckos have 38 chromosomes to hold all of their genetic information. Generally chromosomes appear in corresponding pairs, this mean that leopard gecko have 19 corresponding pairs of chromosomes, in most of their cells. However there are a few cells, called gametes, which only house 1 copy of each chromosome, instead of two. These cells are the sperm, and egg cells. When they meet, they combine, and then the new organism will have the 38 chromosomes, half from the mother, and the other half from the father. Cells that carry one copy of each chromosome are called haploid cells, and cells that carry two (all but the sex cells) are called diploid cells.

Alleles
Alleles are pretty much just genes. It is just more of a scientific name.

Heterozygous (Het) & Homozygous
As stated above, there are two copies of each chromosome, which come in corresponding pairs. Each corresponding pair of chromosomes carry the same alleles. So there are two copies of each allele, one on each chromosome. Sometimes the copies are the same, and other times they are different. When the copies are different the organism is called a het for that allele, when the copies are the same, the organism is called homozygous for that allele.

Recessive Alleles
Recessive alleles are traits that will only show up in the homozygous form (both copies of the chromosomes, must carry the same allele). Recessive alleles can be carried in the het form; however the trait they represent will not be outwardly visible.

Examples of recessive alleles in leopard geckos are
• Tremper Albino
• Bell Albino
• Rainwater Albino
• Murphy’s Patternless
• Eclipse Eye
• Blue Tail

Dominate Alleles
Dominate alleles are traits that will show up in both the het, and homozygous form. They will also appear the same, in either form, you can not tell just by looking at an organism if they are het, or homozygous for a dominate allele.

Examples of dominate alleles in leopard geckos are
• Enigma
• Gem Snow
• Normal

Co-Dominate Alleles
Co-Dominate alleles are traits that will show up in both the het, and homozygous form. However unlike dominate alleles where you can’t tell weather or not, an organism is het or homozygous, for a co-dominate alleles the organism’s appearance will be different, in the het state, than it will in the homozygous state. Generally the homozygous form of a co-dominate allele, is called the “super” form.

Examples of co-dominate alleles in leopard geckos are
• Giant / Super Giant
• Mack Snow / Super Snow

Line Breed Trait
A line breed trait is a trait that is controlled by multiple alleles. There is no dominate, recessive, or co-dominate alleles involved in a line breed trait. The way line breed traits work, is by increaser and decrease alleles. For example if you breed the whitest line breed snow to a normal leopard gecko, you would most likely get something in between a really white snow, and a normal. The offspring in this group would vary, some being whiter than the others. However if you took a snow, that wasn’t as white as the first one, and breed it to a normal, the offspring wouldn’t be as white, as they would be in the group that used the whiter line breed snow.

Examples of line breed traits in leopard geckos are
• Line Breed Snow
• Tangerine
• Carrot-tail
• Bold Strip
• Jungle

Phenotype & Genotype
An organism’s phenotype, are the traits that an organism expresses outwardly. Genotype, are the traits that an organism carries, but doesn’t necessarily express outwardly. As an example lets take Tremper albino (recessive trait) if the animal has two copies of the Tremper albino allele, then it will be expressed outwardly, so the animal is a phenotypic Tremper albino. However if the only carries one copy of the Tremper albino gene, then it is “het” tremper, which means that it carries the Tremper albino allele in its genotype.
However if you take a dominate allele, lets say the enigma allele, the animal will show the trait, outwardly if it carries that gene. So the allele is both in the animal’s phenotype, and genotype. There is no “het” for a dominate allele (the allele can be carried in the het state, however like stated above you cannot tell whether or not the animal is het or homozygous and since the trait is expressed in the animals phenotype, you just say what it is). With a dominate allele, the animal either carries the allele or they don’t, and you can tell by just looking at them.
It is also a little different for co-dominate. Lets take the mack snow trait for example. If the animal is a mack snow (het version of the super snow) then its phenotype is mack snow, and it genotypic is “het” super snow, as it only carries on copy of the super snow gene. If the animal is a super snow, then its phenotypic is super snow, and its genotypic is also super snow, meaning that it carries two copies of the super snow gene, rather than just one, like its mack snow counterpart.

As you can see the mack snow gene shows up as there as I already stated. So what you are breeding is a

Enigma (that is het for the enigma trait) Bell (Homozygous for the bell trait, other wise you wouldn’t see it)

And a blizzard (homozygous for the blizzard trait, other wise you would see it)

So here is how to work the wizard…

Step One: Click 3 traits
Step Two: Fill in one trait with enigma, another one with bell, and another one with blizzard
Step Three: for the male put it as het for enigma, homozygous for bell and WT for blizzard. For the female put homozygous blizzard and WT for enigma, and bell.
Step Four: Click as the wizard.

This is what you should get…

50% Het. Bell , Het. Blizzard ,
50% Het. Bell , Het. Blizzard , Het. Enigma ,

What this means is that statistically you should get…

50% normal, 100% het bell, and 100% het blizzard
50% enigma, 100% het bell, and 100% het blizzard

So if you want to breed these two together why not, a few people are working on the blazing bell blizzard, why not add the enigma gene to the mix?

In my humble opinion, it is not an interesting cross. If the blizzard doesn't turn out to be Mack snow, you would end up with all normals and normal enigmas, het for traits that don't seem to mix well (I don't know if it's just bad luck or they don't really mix well, but you don't see many Bell blazing blizzards around, do you?). Also, I think that projects with multiple hets are for people with lots of room and patience. I would buy a pretty Bell hybino to get some nice Bell albinos and Bell enigmas (or a Mack snow Bell to produce Mack snow Bell enigmas, Bell enigmas and Bell albinos if you are into Macks) and in the meanwhile prove out the blizzard with a Mack snow. But that's only me.

These crosses would most likely be better though.

Hope that helps

Sandra · Jul 4, 2008

Halley said:
As you can see the mack snow gene shows up as there as I already stated.

It is difficult to the untrained eye to distinguish blizzards from Mack snow blizzards. I interpreted it as if the blizzard came from a Mack snow cross and the breeder told her that it could be a Mack snow, but he/she didn't know for sure.

But if the breeder literally told you that it was "het Mack snow", you probably got ripped off!

Halley · Jul 4, 2008

It is difficult to the untrained eye to distinguish blizzards from Mack snow blizzards. I interpreted it as if the blizzard came from a Mack snow cross and the breeder told her that it could be a Mack snow, but he/she didn't know for sure.

But if the breeder literally told you that it was "het Mack snow", you probably got ripped off!

Yeah I guess that that is more than possible. I have a hatchling where there is question on whether or not it is a mack snow or not. And sometimes it is hard to tell a mack blizzard from a blizzard, so you are right on that as well.

I do know that some breeders will say “het super snow” but “het mack snow” just doesn’t existed, it would have to be possible mack. If bred to an enigma you could definitely tell if it had the mack gene, as the mack enigma is definitely different than any other morph I have ever seen.

However I would go with the other pairing that Sandra said, if possible.

Do you have pics of the geckos? That might help out here.

paulnj · Jul 4, 2008

NOBODY has proven a enigma to be "homozygous" or have a "super form" .... and released the proven findings atleast.

Sanda is correct in her genetic break down of the cross.

LZRDGRL · Jul 4, 2008

thanks to all!

Dear all,

Thanks, you helped a lot! I think I'll go with what Sandra said and will acquire a female Mack Snow Bell for my Enigma in the near future.

Here are pics of the geckos:

The seller of the blizzard female told me she was not sure whether she was het for Mack Snow, so we agreed to call her "possible," and I got her price-reduced, so I'm very satisfied with her and want to try her out somehow.

I have established "breeding groups" http://lzrdgrl.com/breedinggroups.aspxon my webpage, but I don't know enough about genetics to know whether they really make sense or not. I only have four males: a Tangerine Jungle Albino, a Rainwater Jungle Albino, a Bell Enigma, and a SHTCT. All my others are different female morphs, and I'm just not certain which ones would best be paired together, to make babies worth selling (and keeping for further breeding)... I guess it's too much to ask of anyone to look at these "breeding groups"

Chrissy

paulnj · Jul 4, 2008

The first 3 groups definately make sense, but the last has a few things I would like to add input to.

The current trend has mack het albino enigmas not being as sought after as mack albino enigmas, but that is from ads posted, not behind the scenes trade/sales.

normal enigmas het bliz / bell are not a project I would do unless you have a goal of making the bell blazing blizzard yourself.

I would suggest SS het bell , SS bell, mack bells, and tang bells for your enigma myself

The SS het bell will give 100% macks atleast with 25% ....mack het bell, mack het bell enigma, mack bell, mack bell enigma, that's far better than the SS non het .

LZRDGRL · Jul 4, 2008

thanks, Paul...

I just found someone who will inform me when she has a female Mack Snow Bell available.

I already have a pretty tang bell (the enigma's half-sister).

But what is a SS Bell??? (I'm not quite familiar with the technical terms yet. I'm from Germany where SS means something really really bad :main_yes: )

Greetings,

Chrissy

paulnj · Jul 4, 2008

a mack super snow bell. I know supersnow bells are hatching in germany, and a few breeders can ship them to HAMM for you if need be.

Halley · Jul 4, 2008

Well your breeding groups don't look to bad. You might follow Paul’s suggestions though.

LZRDGRL · Jul 4, 2008

thanks, Paul

ahh! That's what it is. I knew I had seen it before. I live in the U.S. now and don't need to go to Hamm. I practically lived next to Hamm for 20 years and didn't know there was a reptile show!! Late regret

Too bad it's never at the time I travel home to see my family (which is at Christmas).

Bell Enigma x Blizzard poss. het MS = ???

LZRDGRL

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