Outcome questions, confused!

Hey y'all. This won't happen for another season, but I believe in doing lots of study beforehand to get the best chance of the desired result!

Okay, so here are the questions (I've tried playing it out on the Reptile Calculator but I'm still not feeling clear.):

If I wanted to produce SnowGlows, why do I have to use a Super Snow Albino to a Sunglow? ? (To create SnowGlows theoretically in a single generation, as seen stated on Leopard Gecko Wiki, a SS Albino is the Snow type suggested.)

Why can't I use a Mack Snow Albino to a Sunglow?

If my math isn't totally off (and it could be!) shouldn't that result in at least a chance of a SnowGlow being produced?

My (in my brain) theory of outcome:

Mack Snow Albino
Tremper Albino

I read something about about Sunglow to Mack Snow Albino having offspring who are Hypo so then perhaps also

Hypo Mack Snow Albino and Hypo Tremper Albino (so Hybino?)

Thanks for any and all help!

(Side note: I do have all the genetic components to do a multi-generational project, and I may still do that, but I can't weigh options if I don't have all the information!)

The leopardgeckowiki article says that it will be faster to use a Mack super snow albino. That's because all of the babies will be Mack snow, vs. (statistically) 50% of the babies being Mack snow. The traits that will be the hardest to pin down are the superhypo and the white/orange coloring since there's no guarantee how many superhypos and/or good coloring you'll get. It would be a shame to use a Mack snow and produce Mack snow babies without good superhypo tang traits, and non-Mack snow babies with superhypo tang traits! The other thing that's implied by the article is that while it's likely that you'll get geckos that are technically Snowglows in the first generation, it would likely take several generations of selective breeding to get something you would be proud to call a snowglow. That's especially because it could take several generations to refine the color. I've done a lot of Mack snow x superhyp tang crosses and had them either yellow up or come out some greyish yellow color. Good luck with them next year.

Aliza

Thank you Aliza, that helped a lot!

I definitely didn't expect to have a first generation produce exactly what you said, something I'd be proud to call a SnowGlow. It's nice to know someone else is in the process, and I appreciate the insight to your outcomes personally. That helps more than some web page can, as far as I am concerned.

I'm curious about if using one of my (more yellow) Mack Snow Albinos to my Sunglow girl might produce better color saturation down the line in the ones that ARE Mack Snow offspring. Then again it could blow up and I'd end up as you said, with over-yellowed "SnowGlows" or Mack Snows and Super Hypos.

I've also got a MS Eclipse boy that is light with very little yellowing, and so far he's holding his light pigment, so he could also be a candidate, but as you said, then I might risk losing the Super Hypo characteristics in the Mack Snow babies. Then they'd also be het Eclipse (though, per her breeder, my Sunglow is pos. also Eclipse or het for it because he bred Eclipse into some of his Sunglow lines...and she had snake eyes as a hatchling that are fading as she ages, but still slightly visible).

I definitely don't mind a multi-generation breeding plan, and as we don't plan on breeding more than a few females at a time each season, I won't feel terribly guilty because we won't be flooding the market with...well...poop. lol But if you want to build from scratch, you have to start somewhere!

Has anyone else here tried to produce SnowGlows either from scratch or using the "shortcut" of a Super Snow Albino to a Sunglow? I'd be very interested to hear your outcomes and any advice! Thanks!

Aliza hit the nail on the head.

Leo's have a deceptive quality where they breed at a relatively young age and you can combine certain morphs to "create" a morph, but I can't think of a single morph or project that didn't take years of dedicated breeding to achieve the desired results.

If you want high quality snowglows, save your time and ultimately money and just buy some quality ones from the get go. Then refine it from there. It might seem like more money on the for-front, but the time, space, electricity and food will end up costing you the same amount.

Treefolk, is there anyone here in the US that has good SnowGlow stock? I have done some searching but I didn't find anything that grabbed me (well, as much as a few I've seen in the UK, but I'm not so certain I'm ready for importing just yet!).

goodness! i searched for almost an hour trying to find an american snow glow seller, but no luck... maybe someone else will find one for you!

Now that I explained about why it makes more sense to use a super snow, I will say that a disadvantage of using a super snow is that, unless you know its parents, there's no guarantee what kind of color a super snow is going to pass on because it's going to look white and black/beige. I used a super snow male as a breeder for a few years and many of the offspring were dirty gray/yellow. Now I have a hypo Mack snow with light coloring and am much happier with the offspring color, though they still yellow up.

If your gecko had snake eyes as a juvie, it should be an eclipse; sometimes the snake eye visible trait fades.

I find as a small scale breeder that since I've limited myself as to how many males I keep (and am not willing to buy and sell males to continually upgrade them), I'm limited in what I can produce. I don't have either the space or the males to refine through numerous generations. I wrote an article about that for Gecko Time a number of years ago. It's here:
Guide to Breeding Leopard Geckos on a Small Scale | Gecko Time

The sequel (which not many people tend to read) is here:
Breeding on a Small Scale Revisited | Gecko Time

Aliza

Aliza, I didn't know there was a revisited version! Thank you so much for that link! I am going to read it right now.

I follow what you're saying about a Super Snow color gamble.

I love the color on my Mack Snow Albino boys, but they are VERY lemon-y where they are yellow (think Lemon Merengue Pie filling). I find that appealing though (I know it's not everyone's cup of tea), and my Sunglow girl is the color of a good ripe lemon skin. I am not certain, however, if because they're both so pigment packed, that I wouldn't have a lot of very strongly pigmented offspring (with little white) as you said might happen.

I've also seen two ends of SnowGlows, those with white and very pastel colors and also a few that are that beautiful snowy white but in their colored sections they are very pigmented. I love both versions, but do tend to favor the brighter variety. Ideally, I'd like to own and produce both eventually whether it be from lines I work on myself or lines already established.

About using a Mack Snow Albino vs a SS Albino, I'd rather have a smaller chance of producing a first gen SnowGlow but being a bit more confident in my results than taking a short cut. It just seems more prudent. (I am SO not saying that anyone who chooses to start with a higher percentage rate for a first gen SnowGlow by using a SS Albino is doing something wrong, it's just how my mind works, smaller steps so I can be more in control - or as in control as it gets with Leo genetics! lol)

I did manage to find a breeder in the US who produces them and is on the second year of their program, but I did NOT find this through a Google search. It is nice to see some mid-project and be able to ask (another person) how they're developing. Personal input is really something super helpful to someone like me, I like to see how projects unfold to learn from them.

Aliza, you are really helpful, and I appreciate your input so much!

No problem. I also like the white and orange look, especially the creamsicle (Mack snow tangerine). I tried breeding a SHTCT to my Mack snow one year and didn't get anything like what I was hoping for. Oh well. I have some interesting tang possibilities coming this year.

Aliza

Creamsicles are also on my "hope to produce" list, but the (theoretical!) genetics are much more straight forward, in my brain, than the SnowGlows were. I think the percentage for producing actually Creamsicles are pretty low, but if no one gambled those odds, we'd never have any at all, and that's a sad thought!