Tough decision: breed for genetics or phenotypes (genes or appearance)?

Ok, so I had a nice polygenic (linebred appearance) breeding plan decided:

g10: SHTCT male
g11: SHTCT Tremper Albino female (aka SUNGLOW) het for Marble eye
g12: Blood SHTCT female

Mating with g11: would give me stunning Super Hypo's het tremper ph Marble eye
Mating with g12: would give me stunning Blood-cross (influenced color) Super Hypo's
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But then someone stirred up the "marble eye itch" I was already trying to ignore..lol So now I have 4 other Marble eye Leo's I will be receiving next week. And now I have to decide what to do with all of them....focus on appearance or gene-matching for Marble eye?? I will be getting:

g13: Hypo male Marble eye 66%-possible Tremper (about 7 spots on head & 7 spots on body)
g14: Hypo Tremper (aka SUNGLOW) Female het Marble eye
g15: SHTCT male het Marble eye (verrrry few minor spots...about 2 on head, 2 on body) 66%-possible Tremper
g16: SHTCT female Marble eye 66%-possible Tremper (stunning super hypo).

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So....I would love to use g10 (shtct) or g15 (shtct het marble 66% Tremper) as my primary male, so I can get the MOST amazing hopefully spotless hatchlings, but they would all be "possible het marble possible het tremper" (unless tremper is proven or Marble is "guaranteed" from g16 or Marble is proven visually). This would give me:

ALOT of nice Super Hypos......if I use g15, very few may be visually Marble and/or Tremper.
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BUT....I would also love to use g13 as my primary male to get as many visual Marble eyes (and guaranteed "het Marble eye") as possible. They might end up with some spots though. Also, again...I may prove the 66% het Tremper and get some Trempers from females g14 or g16. I would get from the following females:

g11 female: Possibly trempers (guaranteed to be "het tremper")....about half "Marble visual" & half "het Marble"....all have some spotting (???...I have no "line-breeding" experience so I don't know how much spotting will be passed down")

g12 female: ALL Blood-cross (influenced) "het Marble" "possible het Tremper" (until g13 male is proven "het Tremper").

g14 female: ALL het Tremper from mom (unless g13 male proves "het Tremper")....ALL have some spotting (again, how much??)....about half "Marble visual" & half "het Marble".

g16 female: ALL have "Marble visual" eyes....ALL have some spotting (again, how much??).....All have LOW chance of Tremper (but if g13 male does prove "het tremper" with a different female, then ALL will be "possible het Tremper".

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If you can tell me how much spotting to expect from "hypo x super hypo", please let me know!! The spots are a BIGGGG dealbreaker for me right now.

Please tell me who you would pair up and WHY? For simplicity, please reference the Leo's by the assigned "G-#".
For example:
1) "g13 x g14 for Marbles"....
2) "g15 x g12 for Blood-cross Super Hypos possible-het Marble".....
3) etc etc

NOTE: I am uploading pics NOW and they will be in my next comment on this thread...so please hold your answer until you have seen the Leo's and decided: Stick with appearance, chase the Marble genes, or what mix of the genotype/phenotypes??

Males:
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g10: SHTCT-B male
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g13: Hypo Marble eye, 66% het Tremper
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g15: Super Hypo het Marble eye, 66% het Tremper
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Females:
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g11: Tremper Sunglow het Marble Eye female
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g12: Blood SHTCT female
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g14: Tremper Super Hypo (aka SUNGLOW) het Marble eye:
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g16: Super Hypo Marble eye, 66% het Tremper:
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Prove out one of the two males. Not sure why you got two males, seems like a waste of money.

Your Sunglow ME is going to prove out the male that it's bred to. Once you know what's what, improve your genetics in the next generation.

Treefolk said:

Prove out one of the two males. Not sure why you got two males, seems like a waste of money.

Your Sunglow ME is going to prove out the male that it's bred to. Once you know what's what, improve your genetics in the next generation.

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lol....I know, but the breeder would only sell them in "pairs". So I had to buy g13 (ME hypo male) to get g14 female (Sunglow het ME female).... g15 + g16 are a "win/win" because they are both awesome SuperHypos...
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So do you have any pairing recommendations? I love Super Hypos, but I have no experience with breeding, so I don't know why many "spots" to expect if I breed a Hypo to a SuperHypo. That's why my decision is so tough...my full-ME male has 7spots on head and 7 spots on body... I would love to use him to get as many full-ME's as possible, but I also would love to mate Super-hypos x Super-hypos... Tough decision....need some input on what to expect with "spotting" or just recommendations & reasoning...

A lot of times, it will take many seasons to produce the look you're going for. Don't try to rush it. Definitely try to prove out male hets, but also breed what you think will make the nicest offspring that you can breed back next season. I've actually produced some of my nicest animals from double het pairings.

Kristi23 said:

A lot of times, it will take many seasons to produce the look you're going for. Don't try to rush it. Definitely try to prove out male hets, but also breed what you think will make the nicest offspring that you can breed back next season. I've actually produced some of my nicest animals from double het pairings.

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Agreed. Often times when hybridizing, breeding het to het will preserve the more polygenic traits. IE, if I breed my typhoon male to two SHTCT, I can either breed the daughters back to the father, but then only 25% of their genetics is actually SHTCT. But if I breed het to het offspring I will retain 50% of the SHTCT.... And as we all know the 'pretty' stuff is usually polygenic. Don't get me wrong though, backcrossing is important as well, just depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Kristi23 said:

A lot of times, it will take many seasons to produce the look you're going for. Don't try to rush it. Definitely try to prove out male hets, but also breed what you think will make the nicest offspring that you can breed back next season. I've actually produced some of my nicest animals from double het pairings.

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I've got my plan about 90% figured out, ...possibly 100%.....but I am just nervous about one pairing. They are all strategically paired up based on, in order of priority:

1) SUPER hypos!!!
2) Marble madness!!
3) Tremper hets proven in process :main_robin:
4) "het Marble" hatchlings :main_thumbsup:

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Kristi, the one pair I am a little anxious about is:
g13 Hypo male x G11 Sunglow (not even discussing the Marble or tremper genes right now)....

How many spots should I expect out of the hatchlings? Is it a direct relationship, like "7-spot hypo" x "no-spot SuperHypo" = "3 or 4 spot hatchlings? I like predicting genetics, but I don't have the experience to "predict" linebreeding...lol :O



(and, as a side question: does this g11 female look like a Blood-cross? she is so "bronze-ish" and he is soooooo yellow???)

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g13:
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g11:
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I'm not real good with predicting spotting, but usually breeding reduced spotted animals will give you more reduced spotted animals. I would guess that yours will have very little spotting. As for the blood thing, I don' t see it, but you would need to know genetics on the animals. Since those look like Steve's photos, he would have put blood cross or blood line if it was. Hope that helps a little.

Kristi23 said:

I'm not real good with predicting spotting, but usually breeding reduced spotted animals will give you more reduced spotted animals. I would guess that yours will have very little spotting. As for the blood thing, I don' t see it, but you would need to know genetics on the animals. Since those look like Steve's photos, he would have put blood cross or blood line if it was. Hope that helps a little.

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Definitely helps some! You are right...if it came from blood origins, it would probably be listed with that history. On the "Available page", it said Tremper Sunglow 100% het marble eye.......in an email, it said that her parents were "Marble eye x het marble eye". I guess the color is just a linebred quality. It would be interesting to see a thread with a pic of each breeders "trademark" colors..

I'll be mixing the bronze-ish with the bright yellow and I will see what color I get...(if you have a guess or advice, feel free to post).

I hope I get SUPER-reduction in spotting and the hatchlings look like g11

If your hypos and super hypos are from the same bloodline you should get an amount of spotting that is in between the two you're breeding. If you're outcrossing there is no telling since spotting is a line-bred trait.

Marble eye is a touchy gene kinda like the albinos. Anything you cross a marble eye animal to should be proven out that it is not het for eclipse. If you mix the two eye traits it "muddies the waters" a lot like mixing albinos. Your buyer audience will also be limited to only folks working with marble eye or eclipse-het-free geckos. Not that this is a bad thing! There's quite a bit of interest in the gene so you should have lots of people interested.

Personally I just matched a pair I liked and enjoyed the babies. A couple of the pairs I tried were awesome, a couple not so fabulous. I sold the breeders that produced the not so fabulous and am breeding the fabulous offspring this season. I have some more concrete goals this season as I learned what I can produce from my geckos and what I really like. I also added a bit of variety from other breeders so I didn't hatch out 45 sunglows in a row which was fabulous but got a bit hum-drum by the end of the season...haha.

DrCarrotTail said:

If your hypos and super hypos are from the same bloodline you should get an amount of spotting that is in between the two you're breeding. If you're outcrossing there is no telling since spotting is a line-bred trait. .

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By bloodline, do you mean actual family relationship? I am planning my pairings based on Superhypos/hypos x superhypos/hypos/sunglows, but there are from different breeders, so there is no actual "relationship".....just the visual hypo-ness.. Is it considered "outcrossing" when you pair 2 superhypos from different breeders (different "families/bloodlines")?

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I just want to make sure my linebreeding will turn out as I hope:

1) g10 x g12 is "super hypo x Blood super hypo"....I am hoping for an interesting color (blood-cross) Super hypo, with NO spotting appearing.

2) g13 x g11 is "Hypo Marble eye 66% het Tremper x Super Hypo Tremper Sunglow het Marble eye".....I am hoping for....All hypos...about 1/2 will be Marble eye (other half will be "het Marble")....about half might be Tremper...(other half will be "het Tremper"). So I am hoping for minimal spots, and hoping I get a few Tremper Marbles....

G10 has NO relation to g12......and....g13 has NO relation to g11. Does it matter in linebreeding? Hypo and superhypo just kinda "blend" and you get an appearance that is "a mix of the two parents" even if they aren't from the same family, right?
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DrCarrotTail said:

Marble eye is a touchy gene kinda like the albinos. Anything you cross a marble eye animal to should be proven out that it is not het for eclipse. If you mix the two eye traits it "muddies the waters" a lot like mixing albinos.

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Yep, I have the genetic info of the parents of all my Leo's, even the one's that haven't come in yet...lol They all have very detailed info and come from reputable breeders. But I definitely will not be crossing with ANY possible eclipse Leo's.

By bloodline I mean if you are breeding Blood hypo to Blood hypo or Atomic to Atomic or Electric to Electric. An outcross would be Blood to Atomic (or any other line or an animal from an unknown line). Since Super hypo is a polygenic trait that is line bred, the lack of spots may (or may not!) be coded at different places in different lines so there is always the potential for spots. Even when breeding two animals from the same super hypo line you'll get a few that have a spot or two, it's just the way polygenic traits and genetic variation occur. Largely unpredictable.

DrCarrotTail said:

Since Super hypo is a polygenic trait that is line bred, the lack of spots may (or may not!) be coded at different places in different lines so there is always the potential for spots. Even when breeding two animals from the same super hypo line you'll get a few that have a spot or two, it's just the way polygenic traits and genetic variation occur. Largely unpredictable.

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I'll just have to "roll the dice" and hope for the best. They are paired up for polygenetics 1st, with a good genetic plan supporting it. I'll create another thread later with the actual pairings.

I've gotten the pictures of my Leo's parents and WOW...1 step in the right direction (linebreeding) can go a LONG way (atleast sometimes). The same male (with ALOT of spots) mated with 2 females (medium spots and no spots females)...and produced the 4 I bought.

1) The 2 hatchlings from the "medium spots" female have grown into Leo's with little & almost-non-existant spots.
2) The 2 hatchlings from the "no spots" female have grown into "no apparent spots" adult Leo's. (note..I say "apparent" because 1 female is Tremper Sunglow...so spotting would be faded and less visible).
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