The controversial SAND

Russellm0704 · Aug 31, 2012

i don't think it's a bad idea to have a hide in the cage wit eco earth in it. I only use it in my lay boxes but my females like to dig whether they are laying or not.

GodzillaGecko · Sep 6, 2012

eco earth seems like a good way to let the leo's dig around without getting hurt. Its not sand and I don't see any reason why this would hurt them. anyone else use eco earth?

Enigmatic_Reptiles · Sep 9, 2012

I use cocoanut fiber for lay boxes. How is ingesting pant particulate a less potential for harm? Obviously I use it, but I am also one who believes sand is no more dangerous than any other particulate substrate if done correctly.

Dimidiata · Sep 9, 2012

The fibers are easier to breakdown then the minerals. Though, a large ingestion of fiber could clog too.

Enigmatic_Reptiles · Sep 9, 2012

Key words...COULD clog. Sand COULD cause impaction. No guarantee it will. Fibers will break down easier, but size and density could easily cause improper breakdown or even trauma to organs. I agree that fibers are better...just playing devils advocate because EVERYTHING we do with our animals has risk affiliated with it.

Dimidiata · Sep 10, 2012

In a sense, we dont have any need for sand. Its not even natural for them, there is no reason for it to be. Of course, we can argue for coco fiber that it does have the purpose of humidity, but then some can just say that we should use paper towel. There really isnt a safe humid hide substrate, anything we put in there can be ingestested and ive seen more stories of paper towel clogs then coco-fiber. Sand is unnecessary, at least coco fiber has a purpose.

Enigmatic_Reptiles · Sep 10, 2012

Sand is more natural to them than mulch or fibrous remains from a tropical environment. Sand MAY have a purpose to help aid in the breakdown of ingesta as well as aid in natural mineral ingestion. I don't know if that is true or not, but it is certainly plausible. To me the only real purpose of coca fiber is/should be a lay box substrate. Humidity can be met using safer routes than a loose substrate. None of my males have a moist hide in their tubs, we just mist them occasionally. So obviously it is not NEEDED to have a moist hide for these desert geckos. Also why couldn't sand be the vector in which water is precipitated from to aid in humidity regulation? We use a more sand like substrate for incubation (vermiculite, perilite, etc.) so we know it is a good source of regulating humidity. Once again I am not PRO SAND, but I am also not ANTI SAND. I don't see how everyone is so anti sand because of possible risks when EVERYTHING we do with our animals places them at possible risk. I could very easily start a thread about how breeding is terrible for your geckos. 100% of all animals that are bred will have increased stress levels, periods o mineral/nutrient deficiency, and a decreased life span. Why do we look past the negative effects of breeding...is it because we have a potential for gain and most breeders won't ever even own a single gecko long enough to see it through its entire lifespan so the effect is never seen? Just some food for thought.

panthergecko · Sep 10, 2012

I am also nuetral and would actually use a slate/sand combo for a naturalistic vivaria but only for experienced keepers. I'd love to use sand but like the ease of cleaning a reptile carpet.

M_surinamensis · Sep 16, 2012

katie_ said:
What are the PROS of using sand other than the way it looks? Are there any?

Depends on how one looks at benefits and detriments. Is it a pro to mitigate or minimize a con? Most decisions made regarding captive husbandry involve trade-offs; balancing complicated relationships of risk and benefit against one another, weighing the assorted probabilities involved against the degree to which the results are positive or negative and then arriving at a choice.

Variably shaped surfaces, like those that would be created in an enclosure using a sand substrate will result in an animal that generally has better muscle tone and healthier feet and legs. Walking and standing on a flat plane will put the animal's weight on the same areas of the feet and legs all of the time. This can cause the muscles to develop unevenly, lead to issues with the tendons and even the development and shape of the bones. It's similar to the issue with captive birds who are not given variably shaped perches, or the development of carpal tunnel in people who type too frequently. Constant, unyielding pressure from a single direction isn't conducive to good health.

The "it's natural" argument shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, although it should be looked at much more closely. It intersects rather strongly with the behavior of reptiles, as they are almost overwhelmingly defined by procedural instinctive dictates. Shape, color, texture, thermal properties; these can directly influence the behavior of a reptile, which will inevitably intersect with their overall health. This is especially true of a species like a leopard gecko, where their primary defensive mechanism against predation is related to camouflage. Even casual experiments with very simple controls will demonstrate that these factors can influence behavior, usually along predictable lines that can be extrapolated from their ecological niche in their natural environment. Remove or alter what they experience and their instincts can be retarded in some less predictable ways. The question is really one of how much of an impact on the health of the animal, on its well being, is going to be created by choosing to alter or remove an environmental factor around which they have an instinctive response. That's the tough part, applying weight to the probabilities.

Anyway, over here in this post I wrote something about sand. Edited slightly to remove some contextual inconsistencies specific to the thread in which it was originally posted.

M_surinamensis said:
If care is taken to select and prepare sand, and if the animal being housed on it is healthy and all other husbandry practices are appropriate, then sand or sand/soil mixed are something that can be used safely and successfully for leopard geckos. Furthermore it can produce some beneficial repercussions for the animal's health and development.

Misuse of sand can have negative consequences. So can operating a hair drier in the bathtub.

Using sand correctly and safely requires some forethought, planning, preparation and knowledge of the species that is to be housed on it, so it is not usually recommended for novice and even intermediate keepers. Some advanced keepers who would be capable of using sand will choose other substrate options for a variety of reasons, convenience, ease of use, aesthetics, the physical properties as they interact with heat sources and so on.

At any rate...

Sand is pretty widely available from home improvement and landscaping retailers, as well as any quarries or wholesalers who may be around. It's also sold in some places that sell outdoor toys, as a sandbox fill. Selection is important, as are the steps one takes when using it.

The following will be strictly generalities and should not be used as a thorough and complete guide on the subject.

Things you want to consider for are:

Grade

Shape

Type

Chemical interaction

Packing density

Preparation

Depth and arrangement.

Choice of heat source.

Overall health of the leopard geckos to be housed.

Choice of feeder insect.

Your overall experience with leopard geckos.

Grade- the size of the grains. You want them large enough to avoid being dusty, since dust can be an irritant. You want them small enough to pass relatively easily through the digestive system should they be ingested. Generally you also want a slight mix in the grain sizes, as it plays a role in how the sand packs. If they are uniformly even, you can experience something akin to what is seen in a ball-pit at a Chuck E Cheese.

Shape- rounded is better than squared off, as sharp corners can cause microscopic abrasions that are best avoided. Sharp corners also represent more of a danger as an irritant and impaction risk should they end up under the eyelid, in the vent or being ingested. Perfect circular grains also contribute to a looser packing density, so overall flattened ovoids are generally best.

Type- which minerals are present in the mix. This tends to inform many of the other bullet points on that list; different minerals tend to be shaped differently, will conduct heat slightly differently, will be more or less dusty and will be more or less prone to bonding. Color actually comes into play slightly as well, intersecting the behaviors associated with stealth and camouflage. Dirt mixtures, sand combined with fine soil, are ideal if prepared properly.

Chemical interaction- some sand mixtures, when exposed to a catalyst, will form chemical bonds between grains. The ones you're aiming for will develop a slight crust if exposed to water (a solvent) and then allowed to dry. It helps with packing density. You're basically looking for calcium oxide, which you can turn into calcium hydroxide by wetting it down and baking it with a heat source. Lime, pretty much. It's making a microscopic layer of calcium hydroxide between all the grains; the same process used to make concrete. Just much, much, much smaller.

Packing density- largely a result of the above mentioned factors, it's the idea that your sand should be pressed down and fairly solid. You want to avoid loose dunes or piles, which can be easily ingested and will be kicked up everywhere as the animal walks or digs. There should be some variability and yield to the surface, but it should not be loose and free flowing.

Preparation- some of it is pretty easy, like rinsing the sand using an extremely fine strainer to help remove some of the dust. Some of it is slightly more involved, like mixing, packing and arranging it or baking out the moisture to an appropriate degree on the surface. If you're aiming for a bioactive enclosure, you should definitely check out Gregg's posts on the subject. My generalizations here should not be mistaken for a thorough explanation.

Depth and arrangement- leopard geckos will dig if given a substrate which allows for it. Using a deeper layer of substrate can allow for that digging behavior, and trigger instinctive regulation behaviors, where they associate up and down with factors such as heat and moisture. These are often altered by the presence of other terrarium fixtures; caves and fake plants, rocks and bits of slate can all be positioned above, or buried in the sand to alter some of those behaviors. Since the instincts developed in relation to wild conditions, care should be taken to ensure that they function correctly in the captive environment, where heat, light and moisture are being artificially supplied. Done right, bits of slate and rock and wood can pre-determine where and how the animals display specific behaviors.

Choice of heat source- the thermal conductivity of the substrate will vary depending on the mineral mix and the packing density, the depth and arrangement intersect this as well. There's a fairly strong chance that you will need to take some extra steps in creating an appropriate thermal gradient and finding a balance that gives you the correct temperatures in the right places. Heat pads and tape, the consideration of a layer of tile between the glass and the sand, lamps- the output and placement are all variables. Take care to ensure that temperatures are being measured accurately and thoroughly, use a finely calibrated precision thermometer, high quality thermostats and a temp gun to spot check and verify.

Overall health of the leopard geckos being housed- the health and condition of the animal(s) can cause changes in behavior. The things done by a healthy animal are not always identical to some of the things done by an animal experiencing problems. Parasite loads, improper nutrition and supplementation, difficulties shedding, hemipenal prolapses, egg binding, dehydration, digestive difficulties... these can change the behavior of the animal and potentially lead to problems with the substrate that are unlikely to be experienced by an animal that was perfectly healthy. The condition changes the behavior, which changes the probabilities associated with risk factors.

Choice of feeder insect- in addition to the nutritional value, size, shape and behavior of insects can change the details of how a leopard gecko hunts them. Worms will be closer to the substrate than crickets or beetles, smaller prey items sometimes result in a grab that hits the substrate rather than being a clean strike, larger prey items sometimes prompt the gecko to drag the insect around in order to reposition their grip or break off a manageable piece, those that jump and run result in more missed strikes than those which lay and wiggle... selecting appropriate insects that will best result in clean strikes and are easily swallowed can have a tremendous impact on how much sand is likely to be present in the digestive tract at any given time. A grain of small, round sand will be passed and eliminated with the waste. Many grains of sand can bunch together and clog up (especially around the bends), like hair in a sink.

The overall experience with leopard geckos- the most crucial factor of all is the educated, experienced, knowledgeable oversight of the owner. If someone genuinely, thoroughly knows leopard geckos, then they are in a position to recognize, identify and understand all the factors present in the environment, as well as be able to monitor minute but meaningful behaviors and changes seen in the animal. It's the thing that makes it possible as well as the safety net that makes the risks (which can be substantially mitigated but never eliminated entirely) acceptable, even desirable in order to gain the benefits. This is something that should be approached without ego or conceit, everyone who is thinking of using a particulate substrate should honestly assess themselves and come to an informed conclusion about their own preparedness to handle the variables and added responsibilities. There's no shame in not being ready or in deciding it's more than you want to deal with even if you're capable, the only thing that will result in condemnation and judgment is going ahead anyway despite not being so.

Some of the upsides if it's done well... Behavioral complexity, instincts exist that are genetically mandates which will only end up being displayed when the proper stimuli is encountered, some of those are related to the physical environment around wild geckos. Better development of muscle and bone tissue, the variable and slightly yielding surface of a particulate substrate brings different parts of the foot into play as they move, each step is unique, with its own slight difference in angle and traction, prompting a much healthier growth, better exercise as a result of normal routines and avoiding difficulties caused by repetitive motion and constant exposure to hard surfaces (think carpal tunnel syndrome, or the sores on the feet of birds that only have uniform perches).

It's not impossible. It's not even a bad idea. It's just an idea that is better or worse for every individual owner, based on their unique abilities, knowledge and inclinations.

I'm on the fence about the idea of discussing it.

Withholding or obscuring information is never a positive thing. It's heavy handed, it's a direct violation of the ideals represented by education and it ultimately creates a group of people who (irritatingly) don't know things that they should probably know. Regurgitation replaces educated discourse and that's not good for anyone. Plus it makes me want to bang people's heads together like coconuts when they try to aim it at me. Me!

On the other hand, as pessimistic and burnt out as I am after trying to tell people helpful things and seeing them do it wrong anyway, I don't trust the public to be able to dress themselves in the morning, much less take on the total responsibility for the welfare and health of a living creature with exacting, specific needs. Sometimes "Shut up and do what I tell you to." seems like the only recourse. It doesn't matter if they understand why, as long as they can follow the directions on the what. They're probably idiots anyway.

Cesar_Da_KIng · Sep 17, 2012

lol, + a big fat 1

geckogod · Sep 26, 2012

If you use natural sand like desert or beach sand it is alright.

Russellm0704 · Oct 5, 2012

geckogod said:
If you use natural sand like desert or beach sand it is alright.

source?

Dimidiata · Oct 5, 2012

geckogod said:
If you use natural sand like desert or beach sand it is alright.

Yeah, no.

Embrace Calamity · Oct 5, 2012

Russellm0704 said:
source?

http://www.herpcenter.com/leopard-gecko-care/natural-leopard-gecko-substrates.html
"The added soil and its compactability will help reduce the impaction risk, though it will not remove the risk completely."

http://www.anapsid.org/substrates.html
"Desert animals who live on sand don't ingest enough of it to make it worth the expense, not when plain, cleaned playground sand can be purchased for about $5 per 50 pound bag."

http://www.geckotime.com/housing-leopard-geckos-on-sand/
"Fine play sand is a common substrate choice for leopard geckos, whether it’s purchased in a large bag for $5 from a garden store or in small bags at the reptile store for $10. It’s generally the first substrate most beginner reptile owners will purchase. Some will stick with the fine grade sand, whereas others may change to an alternate substrate choice.

Whether in the wild or in captivity, grains of sand are not all the same. They’re not going to be perfect spheres that will pass through the body with ease, but if you’re going to use sand, try to find a fine grain sand. The larger, coarse grain sand can be harder to pass and easier to lodge in the body.

If you opt to use sand in your leopard gecko enclosure, try to white play sand without any dyes or additives, and certainly no added calcium or mineral deposits. The reptile sand is fine, but most have added dyes; plus it’s much more expensive than a bag of regular play sand."

I guess the person arguably shouldn't have said it's "fine," as obviously there's always a risk, but it doesn't bind like calcium sand does. Many people still don't suggest regular sand as a substrate, though some say, since it doesn't bind or clump or risk a calcium overdose and the reptiles are less likely to lick it, it's not of huge concern. So regular sand seems to be more of a personal opinion, though I think we can all agree calcium sand is very bad. I actually agree with M_surinamensis on this one (referencing his huge post a ways back).

~Maggot

5HiddenLizards · Oct 5, 2012

My 1st gecko has been on sand for 5 years. I've had him for 6 going on 7. I was very leopard gecko stupid when I bought him. I had him on paper towel for about a year. With a heat lamp. No problem.

I switched over to sand from my backyard. Which was pretty much everywhere. Very, very fine sand. Got really dusty if you poured it too fast. I used to "bake" it in the oven to "kill" anything wild that was in there. Once it started cooling, I'd clean the tank and add the new sand once it was cooled.

He ate grasshoppers, moths, crickets, spiders, and the occasional(very rarely) small wild lizard I would catch.

Always had water. Never had a humid hide.
Never really injested sand. I tong fed him 90% of the time.

Even got neglected for a good while when I started my 1st job after high school. No heat or food but he always had water.

I started buying the plain, washed sand from a local building supply store. $1 for a 5gal bucket. And I've been using this ever since. He only wants sand.

I've tried coco fiber, paper towels, reptiCarpet, tiles...nothing. he ends up pacing the tank and looking stressed until I remove the "wrong" (to him) bedding and put the sand back. When the sand is back, he just settles on his belly over the heated side & watches the world go by.

Even now he doesn't have a humid hide. Absolutely HATES his sand to get wet. I only mist the tank when he's about to shed, and only on one side though. Never had a shedding problem.

Poops in his corner & it gets cleaned. I even remove as much of the sand as possible when cleaning it and put new sand in.

When I change out the sand, I cover up his hides and he digs them out the way he wants them.

So sand only for him. My other leo is on paper towel though. With a humid hide.

via Tapatalk

Dimidiata · Oct 6, 2012

Embrace Calamity said:
http://www.herpcenter.com/leopard-gecko-care/natural-leopard-gecko-substrates.html
"The added soil and its compactability will help reduce the impaction risk, though it will not remove the risk completely."

http://www.anapsid.org/substrates.html
"Desert animals who live on sand don't ingest enough of it to make it worth the expense, not when plain, cleaned playground sand can be purchased for about $5 per 50 pound bag."

http://www.geckotime.com/housing-leopard-geckos-on-sand/
"Fine play sand is a common substrate choice for leopard geckos, whether it’s purchased in a large bag for $5 from a garden store or in small bags at the reptile store for $10. It’s generally the first substrate most beginner reptile owners will purchase. Some will stick with the fine grade sand, whereas others may change to an alternate substrate choice.

Whether in the wild or in captivity, grains of sand are not all the same. They’re not going to be perfect spheres that will pass through the body with ease, but if you’re going to use sand, try to find a fine grain sand. The larger, coarse grain sand can be harder to pass and easier to lodge in the body.

If you opt to use sand in your leopard gecko enclosure, try to white play sand without any dyes or additives, and certainly no added calcium or mineral deposits. The reptile sand is fine, but most have added dyes; plus it’s much more expensive than a bag of regular play sand."

I guess the person arguably shouldn't have said it's "fine," as obviously there's always a risk, but it doesn't bind like calcium sand does. Many people still don't suggest regular sand as a substrate, though some say, since it doesn't bind or clump or risk a calcium overdose and the reptiles are less likely to lick it, it's not of huge concern. So regular sand seems to be more of a personal opinion, though I think we can all agree calcium sand is very bad. I actually agree with M_surinamensis on this one (referencing his huge post a ways back).

~Maggot

Thankyou. The problem was with the godifing idea that regular/natural sand is not going to cause issues, which we know is a lie since it has been seen on this forum before. Obviously natural sand is MUCH better then calcium sand since it won't meld together like concrete, but there is still the chance of your animal ingesting it and dying. Animals in the wild are IN THE WILD. They are not always comparable to their captive counterparts. These are good links though and it is great that you supplied them. Just clarifying where my doubts lay.

Embrace Calamity · Oct 6, 2012

Dimidiata said:
Thankyou. The problem was with the godifing idea that regular/natural sand is not going to cause issues, which we know is a lie since it has been seen on this forum before. Obviously natural sand is MUCH better then calcium sand since it won't meld together like concrete, but there is still the chance of your animal ingesting it and dying. Animals in the wild are IN THE WILD. They are not always comparable to their captive counterparts. These are good links though and it is great that you supplied them. Just clarifying where my doubts lay.

I use a rocky soil/sand mixture that seems to serve my leo well. It's my understanding (though this could be incorrect) that a leo can pass natural sand that they might accidentally ingest (as long as it's not in huge amounts) if they're provided with enough heat to their belly and are hydrated and otherwise healthy. I'm not sure if that's true, but I still always keep an eye on my leo when he eats to make sure he doesn't accidentally take any substrate.

~Maggot

katie_ · Oct 6, 2012

Embrace Calamity said:
I actually agree with M_surinamensis on this one (referencing his huge post a ways back).

~Maggot

Ugh his quote was much, much different than saying it was 'fine'.
I think he proved that if you want to use sand there are A LOT of other variables to think about.

Embrace Calamity · Oct 6, 2012

katie_ said:
Ugh his quote was much, much different than saying it was 'fine'.
I think he proved that if you want to use sand there are A LOT of other variables to think about.

I know. That's why I said I agree. My post didn't say it was "fine" either.

~Maggot

M_surinamensis · Oct 6, 2012

Dimidiata said:
These are good links though and it is great that you supplied them.

Anapsid dot org is never a good link. Not even if it seems to be in agreement with something you know to be true. Melissa Kaplan, the site's owner and primary author, is an animal rights activist who believes that the private ownership of reptiles should be made illegal. Her website is insidious; mixing some factual information with subtly calculated misinformation that will provoke health issues in animals that are kept according to her instructions. She laces her site with a message along the lines of "reptiles are impossible to keep in captivity" and the follows up with care information that is misleading or outright incorrect just enough to cause problems. Then when the animals experience inevitable problems, the reader buys in to her anti-pet agenda. She has a long history of anti-pet activism and should not be trusted as an informational resource.

Edit: I'd like to state it more strongly but would rather not put Kelli in a position of having to address the subject. I'd strongly suggest that anyone interested in the history do some broad searches for Melissa Kaplan and pay close attention to the division of opinion with regards to her credibility and worth.

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