Enigma "syndrome" theory!!!

After doing a bit of internet research on things that may cause reptiles and other animals to lose motor functions I came up with a theory that maybe Enigmas are not processing Thiamine (vitamin B1). Maybe the morph does not have the ability to use the Thiamine it takes into its body...

Thiamine is important for cellular repair and development especially in the parts of the brain where motor function is controled...

This could be nothing or it could be a step in the right direction... I would think that tissue samples from an Enigma can rule this theory out or confirm it... Ether way I think it is worth looking into...

Wow, Gregg... I'm impressed with your research... I agree, it wouldn't hurt to look into this... but how do we go about funding such research as a community?

So you are saying if we give our enigma vitamin B1 it will be ok?

Nice job Gregg. Well how much approximately would the testing be? If every member here gave a $1.00 that would be a start. of course we probably wont get a 1.00 from every member but you get my drift.

Chibii said:

So you are saying if we give our enigma vitamin B1 it will be ok?

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No, he's saying the B1 that DOES go into their body isn't broken down and used properly.

Chibii said:

So you are saying if we give our enigma vitamin B1 it will be ok?

Click to expand...

No, he's saying they cannot process vitamin B1, which they need to be able to.
If we could figure out how to make them process it, or find a replacement for it, that would make an enigma with enigma syndrome ok.:main_yes:

PacHerp said:

Wow, Gregg... I'm impressed with your research... I agree, it wouldn't hurt to look into this... but how do we go about funding such research as a community?

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I think that this can be ruled out with a proper necropsy. If someone has an Enigma that passes on, they should have the necropsy done and ask to have the thiamin level tested...

Or we can come together as a group and put some donations together... Being that Kelli is already involved in testing Enigmas, we should talk with her about it...

It's a little more complicated than that. Plus it seems unlikely due to the waxing and waning symptoms of geckos with the "syndrome". You would also need a lot more than one gecko to get significant results on thiamine levels, though antemortem bloodwork would likely be the better option for testing. This was one theory put forward and then rejected by my vets (one an exotics specialist, one a neurologist). And if this was the problem, it would not 'cure' current enigmas, as their brains don't grow after being babies. It might help prevent future cases, though.

Alusdra said:

This was one theory put forward and then rejected by my vets (one an exotics specialist, one a neurologist).

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So what made your vets reject this idea??? Would it not take as much looking into to disprove somehing as it would to prove something???

For one, in general, I would not take a vets word on anything reptile related... Secondly, unless there were tests and research done, nothing can be ruled out and nothing can be pinpointed as the cause...

Alusdra said:

And if this was the problem, it would not 'cure' current enigmas, as their brains don't grow after being babies. It might help prevent future cases, though.

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If this was the case, it would not matter because, if for whatever reason, the enigma genetics hinder the metabolism of Thiamine, they would still be unable to use it... I am not talking about it being a dietary thing... More like a genetic flaw...

However it seems like the issue has been reversed in reptiles... I read about a similar case where American aligators were dieing in a lake in Fl because the fish they were eating produced a thiaminase which is a thiamin blocker... Gators were turning up dead left and right... They were unable to swim properly and had trouble feeding... They fixed the issue and have not had a problem since...

Even if the reptilian brain stops growing, it would still be able to repair its self with the proper thiamine intake...

hey gregg you should talk to kelli she had a lot of information and enig's sent to necropsies and stuff, dont knwo what came from it but i remember her having a lot of research time invested into it

But then why do some enigmas not have this "syndrome", would some enigmas just be able to process more of the thiamin rather than having it "disposed" and not used?.

This is very interesting, and I hope something good comes out of this theory

Gregg well done. I believe you have a valuable observation, I do also agree with you that if this is the problem it could be reversed. Its kinda makes sense for instance beardies dont process vitamin a like other reptiles and cannot properly rid its body of vitamin A intake. So its very possible this could be a step in the right direction, I do think it warrents research and I would volunteer to donate an enigma to the cause, if it helps and or rules out a possible problem why not. Wont hurt anything to investigate further. I must commend you Gregg thats a great theory, Thanks.

Gregg M said:

So what made your vets reject this idea??? Would it not take as much looking into to disprove somehing as it would to prove something???

For one, in general, I would not take a vets word on anything reptile related... Secondly, unless there were tests and research done, nothing can be ruled out and nothing can be pinpointed as the cause...



If this was the case, it would not matter because, if for whatever reason, the enigma genetics hinder the metabolism of Thiamine, they would still be unable to use it... I am not talking about it being a dietary thing... More like a genetic flaw...

However it seems like the issue has been reversed in reptiles... I read about a similar case where American aligators were dieing in a lake in Fl because the fish they were eating produced a thiaminase which is a thiamin blocker... Gators were turning up dead left and right... They were unable to swim properly and had trouble feeding... They fixed the issue and have not had a problem since...

Even if the reptilian brain stops growing, it would still be able to repair its self with the proper thiamine intake...

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I am sorry that i am putting this up again, but my leo (enigma) did something that is not normal in my eyes. She opened her mouth a couple of times rely wide and shook it like she did not want to but just happened. If we can find a way that they can process Thiamine, how can we give it to them. Are their any article's outside geckoforums that are recommended to read about this subject?

Thanks,
Lisa

wouldnt there be an enzyme that allowed their bodies to absorb the thiamine? maybe enigmas either lack that enzyme or it is slightly mutated so they dont match together right. if that enzyme could be located and either added to their body or fixed, maybe that would either solve the problem or at least lessen the severity of the symptoms in geckos that have the syndrome. i have one enigma that shows the syndrome and one that doesnt.
just a thought.

I need some clarification

Hey Gregg,

I enjoy good discussions!
Could you please clarify your theory? Before I comment, I just wanted to clarify- What exactly are you saying about VitaminB1?

Enigma leopard geckos:

1. Don't get enough VitaminB1
2. Can't absorb enough VitaminB1 for proper function
3. Can't absorb VitaminB1 at all

In a previous post you mentioned:

"For one, in general, I would not take a vets word on anything reptile related... Secondly, unless there were tests and research done, nothing can be ruled out and nothing can be pinpointed as the cause..."

Just curious, may I ask if you have a degree in animal nutrition or animal physiology?

-Jon

enigma syndrome question

i have a quick question. everyone here seems to know alot about the syndrome. i have a bell albino leo. i have had her for a year and when i got her she was about two. in the past few months she has developed the syndrome. it owuld last a few days then she would be fine. but this past month has been rough. she is eating fine and everything. i simply dont know what to do though. is there anything a vet can do about it? or is it just best to put her down? i just dont want her to be in pain. she is the sweetest one i have ever had. i had just a normal leo but when she started to have signs of the syndome i gave the other one to my sister in nc b/c i just needed more time to devote to her. so any advice? anything i can do to ease it at all?

I watched this program on National Geographic Wild channel on "Zombie Alligators". If you watch the full-length program they talk about the whole effect of the lack of thiamine in the gators. It does seem similar and would be interesting if that were the case in Enigmas...

(a short clip) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4zHUokFF8

Question: if it is the lack of the ability to process a vitamin wouldn't the syndrome get progressively worse as days passed till they died?

This intrigues me. I 'd love to hear what comes of this theory.

What if they were to substitute the chemical that breaks down thiamine into a useable product such as this "The B vitamin thiamine is essential for the metabolism of carbohydrates into the simple sugar glucose. The chemical process involves the combination of thiamine with pyruvic acid to form a coenzyme, a substance that, when combined with other substances, forms an enzyme. Enzymes are those all-important proteins that speed up chemical reactions in the body. Thiamine is also important for the proper functioning of the nervous system. In this instance, thiamine acts as a coenzyme in the production of the neurotransmitter (chemical messenger between nerve fibers) acetylcholine".

Just a litte more about thiamine deficiency (not in leos buit in general)

"Thiamine deficiency is rare but often occurs in alcoholics, because alcohol interferes with the absorption of thiamine through the intestines. There are several health problems associated with a deficiency of thiamine. The first is beriberi, a disease that is characterized by anemia, paralysis, muscular atrophy and weakness, and spasms in the muscles of the legs. Other disorders caused by thiamine deficiency include Wernicke's encephelopathy, which causes lack of coordination, and Korsakoff's psychosis, which affects short-term memory. The mouth can also be affected by thiamine deficiency, increasing the sensitivity of the teeth, cheeks and gums, as well as "cracks" in the lips. Fortunately, these conditions can be reversed with the addition of the vitamin."

Is there a way to substitute acetylcholine into the body to replace what the leo is losing in the ability to not process thiamine. There are dietairy elements you can add to increase acetylcholine such as:
Egg yolk
Beef liver
Chicken liver
Whole Egg
Turkey liver
Wheat germ
Pork
Lean ground beef
Cod, salmon, or tilapia
Shrimp
Soy protein
Peanut butter
Oat bran
Pine nuts
Almonds
Hazelnuts
Macadamia nuts
Broccoli
Brussels sprouts
Cucumber, zucchini, lettuce
Skim milk
Trimmed ham
Low-fat cheese
Low-fat yogurt

or suppliments like:
GPC choline
Phosphatidylcholine
Phosphatidylserine
Acetyl-L-Carnitine - amino acid supplement.
Manganese - a mineral that preserves acetylcholine
Huperizine-A - This is an herbal extract and is a proven acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. This means it prevents the breakdown of acetylcholine.

If we can provide suppliments the body is lacking to process thiamine then wouldn't that in theory help enigma syndrom?