Super Zeros/Stingers and how this morph works.

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
I have been getting a lot of questions on this morph lately. With the Super name but a recessive morph and the difference between a Stinger and Zero, it seems there is a lot of confusion. I will try to clear it up with this thread and answer any questions. I do ask that you please read all the following information before you ask a question.... please :)

To start this off you will first need to read the post from JMG Reptile's website:
http://jmgreptile.com/morph-update/78-6-03-2012-super-zero-super-stinger-genetics-update

You will need to know the following terms to understand the post.

Allele: is one of two or more forms of a gene or a genetic locus (generally a group of genes). The form "allel" is also used, an abbreviation of allelomorph.

Recessive: is an allele that causes a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele) and never in a heterozygous genotype.

Heterozygous: A diploid organism is heterozygous at a gene locus when its cells contain two different alleles of a gene.[3] Heterozygous genotypes are represented by a capital letter (representing the dominant allele) and a lowercase letter (representing the recessive allele), such as "Rr" or "Ss". The capital letter is usually written first.

If the trait in question is determined by simple (complete) dominance, a heterozygote will express only the trait coded by the dominant allele, and the trait coded by the recessive allele will not be present. In more complex dominance schemes the results of heterozygosity can be more complex.

Homozygous: A cell is said to be homozygous for a particular gene when identical alleles of the gene are present on both homologous chromosomes.[2] The cell or organism in question is called a homozygote. True breeding organisms are always homozygous for the traits that are to be held constant.

An individual that is homozygous-dominant for a particular trait carries two copies of the allele that codes for the dominant trait. This allele, often called the "dominant allele", is normally represented by a capital letter (such as "P" for the dominant allele producing purple flowers in pea plants). When an organism is homozygous-dominant for a particular trait, the genotype is represented by a doubling of the symbol for that trait, such as "PP".

An individual that is homozygous-recessive for a particular trait carries two copies of the allele that codes for the recessive trait. This allele, often called the "recessive allele", is usually represented by the lowercase form of the letter used for the corresponding dominant trait (such as, with reference to the example above, "p" for the recessive allele producing white flowers in pea plants). The genotype of an organism that is homozygous-recessive for a particular trait is represented by a doubling of the appropriate letter, such as "pp".

Phenotypically: result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.

**all definitions above were taken from wikipedia.org

Below is the JMG post in it's entirety:

"Over the past years as we bred the zero and stinger trait we have come to the conclusion that these morphs are a definite recessive. The original patternless and the Super zero / super stinger is allelic with each other."

"The Super zero / Super stinger is a separate line of recessive patternless from the original patternless that has another pattern changing gene close to the main recessive allele that is passed on when the Super zero or super stinger is bred to a normal or other morph. This pattern changing gene close to the main recessive allele can give some of the heterozygous and possible heterozygous offspring connecting bands on the back. The crossing of zeros or stingers to normals will also yield visibly different patterned offspring but may not be actual hets for the super form. This lead to the confusion that these morphs were acting Co-Dom since the other trait at work will give hets and non hets stinger or zero patterns. It is possible to produce all normal looking offspring with a super zero or super stinger and the heterozygous babies when bred together will produce super zeros / super stingers and possibly zeros or stingers possible het for super zero or super stinger. We have come to the conclusion as well that some stingers and zeros that were from het X het super zero or stinger breedings may not be heterozygous for super zero or super stinger even though they display the connecting back pattern. With some pattern / color hereditary traits there are other genetics aside from the main mutation at work that can alter anything. With some morphs there can be a pattern mutating allele inseparable from the main mutation allele seen in some recessive pattern mutations such as the Super zero. Even though the super zero and super stinger are compatible with patternless their ability to produce unique patterned offspring and the difference phenotypically between the homozygous morphs still makes them their own individual morph and they are not the same as a patternless. The future for these traits is very promising as seen when zeros and stingers are bred into hidden genes and the obvious differences between Super zeros / Super stingers and patternless alone. The zero and stinger name will remain the same, the homozygous forms will still be referred to as supers since they have been labeled this way for years."
-end of JMG post-

So the Zero's and Stingers are the same morph with the only difference being that the Zero has a stripe.

HOW DOES THE AFT STRIPE GENE WORK?
To confuse this even more the stripe genetic is a dominant genetic trait that in its heterozygous form bred to a non-stripe AFT, it will produce 50% stripes and 50% non-stripes. If the stripe gene on an AFT is homozygous for the stripe and breed to a non-stripe AFT then 100% of the offspring will be stripes.
Example of how a dominant gene works:
S= Visual Stripe
s= No Stripe

Ss= Visual heterozygous Stripe
SS= Visual homozygous Stripe
ss= No Stripe

Ss x SS
50% SS Visual homozygous stripe
50% Ss Visual heterzygous stripe

SS x ss
100% Ss Visual herterzygous stripe

Ss x Sx
25% SS Visual homozygous stripe
50% Ss Visual heterzygous stripe
25% ss No Stripe

Ss x ss
25% Ss Visual heterzygous stripe
75% ss No stripe

ss x ss
100% No stripe

Now with the stripe genetics cleared up it will be easier to explain the that the only difference between the Stinger and Zero morph is the stripe. Other than the stripe they are the same. An easy way to keep the two straight is that the Zero morph has the stripe gene and therefore takes the Stinger away.

I will explain the Stinger morph and give examples first. The Stinger Morph usually has enclosed bands in the middle of the back with circles symmetrically placed on each side. (Pic coming soon) A Super Stinger looks very similar to a patternless and is even allelic with a patternless. Allelic meaning that if you breed a het Super Stinger to a het Patternless, you can produce a Patternless gecko!

Here are examples of what to expect from Super Stinger/Stinger breedings.

Super Stinger x Normal
100% het Super Stinger

Super Stinger x Stinger het Super Stinger
50% Super Stinger
50% Stinger het Super Stinger

Super Stinger x het Super Stinger
25% Super Stinger
25% Stinger het Super Stinger
50% het Super Stinger

Stinger het Super Stinger x Stinger het Super Stinger
25% Super Stinger
50% Stinger het Super Stinger
25% het 66% Super Stinger

Stinger het Super Stinger x het Super Stinger
??% Super Stinger
50% Stinger het Super Stinger
40+% het 66% Super Stinger

het Super Stinger x het Super Stinger
??% Super Stinger
25% Stinger het Super Stinger
90+% het 66% Super Stinger

Here are examples of what to expect from Super Zero/Zero breedings.

Super Zero x Normal
100% het Super Zero

Super Zero x Zero het Super Zero
50% SuperZero
50% Zero het Super Zero

Super Zero x het Super Zero
25% Super Zero
25% Stinger het Super Zero
50% het Super Zero

Zero het Super Zero x Zero het Super Zero
25% Super Zero
50% Zero het Super Zero
25% het 66% Super Zero

Zero het Super Zero x het Super Zero
??% Super Zero
50% Stinger het Super Zero
40+% het 66% Super Zero

het Super Stinger x het Super Zero
??% Super Zero
25% Zero het Super Zero
90+% het 66% Super Zero

Here are examples of what to expect from Super Stinger/Zero breedings.

Super Stinger x Super Zero(het stripe)
50% Super Stinger
50% Super Zero

Super Stinger x Super Zero (homo stripe)
100% Super Zero

Super Stinger x Zero het Super Zero (het Stripe)
25% Super Stinger
25% Super Zero
25% Stinger het Super Stinger
25% Zero het Super Zero

Super Stinger x Zero het Super Zero (homo Stripe)
50% Super Zero
50% Zero het Super Zero

The Stinger/Zero gene is completely figured out yet, therefore the ?? in the percentages. They also react very differently when combined with other morphs. It will be exciting to see all the combo morphs and how the zero/stinger gene affects them.
 
Last edited:

Fatal_S

Mel's Exotics
Messages
147
Location
Winnipeg, MB
I've already read this a few times, and just wanted to chime in and say a big thank you for posting this. Honestly, I still haven't wrapped my head around it, I'm too used to simple genetics, but hopefully if I read this enough times I will catch on :main_laugh:
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
Mel,

I think it is like most stuff out there, once you start working with them and get the hands on the muddy water starts to clear up. This morph is really confusing because of three areas.

1. The Super form of the morph is not co-dominant, there is no co-dominance at all.
2. Zero's and Stinger's are the same morph, the zero is a combo morph with the dominant stripe gene.
3. The Zero/Stinger morph is allelic with the Pattenless morph. I believe this is the first and only instance in the AFT world.
 

Fatal_S

Mel's Exotics
Messages
147
Location
Winnipeg, MB
So is the super form recessive, and the normal form simple-dominant (allelic w/ patternless)?

Once I have some $ again I'm going to have to get a group from you so I can start clearing up the mud here.
 

EverEvolvingExotics

New Member
Messages
394
Location
Arizona
So is the super form recessive, and the normal form simple-dominant (allelic w/ patternless)?

Once I have some $ again I'm going to have to get a group from you so I can start clearing up the mud here.

Thanks for posting this thread, Thad.

The biggest problem and what I think is confusing so many is from keeping the Homozygous form named "Super Zero/Stinger", it creates a sense that the trait is co-dominant, it doesn't make sense. If you are positive that it is in fact a recessive trait the name should follow suite with the changes to avoid further confusion. Obviously this decision isn't up to me and just a suggestion. I was told the name will stay what it is because it's been established that way. At the same time it was originally established as a co-dom.

I'm receiving a number of Zero and Zeros combos this next week from a new captive bred line produced by a beautiful wild caught female. I'm wondering if this will have an effect on the genetics, this happens a lot in the Ball Python world, and so far Fat Tails seem to have many similarities. I understand JMG's and your point (Thad, Ohio Gecko)and it makes sense to me with the results you've been having but I'm still excited to see it first hand with a new line.

The breeder’s animals that have been produced with their lines of Zeros have very visual traits shown that if seen in other species, like Ball Pythons, would be in no way considered recessive. This is just my observation.

Either way Zeros and Stingers are by far the most underrated unique morphs around these days. I have a ton of faith working with these beautiful geckos. Their dark color and distinct pattern has and will make for some drastic and unique results when mixed with lighter traits. I look forward to seeing the combos made in the not so distant future.

-Lee
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
So is the super form recessive, and the normal form simple-dominant (allelic w/ patternless)?

Once I have some $ again I'm going to have to get a group from you so I can start clearing up the mud here.

Correct, the Super form is recessive and the "normal form" at this time is best described as a het marker. Similar to a het for blazing blizzard geckos display a lot of speckling.

Ok so zero is not co-dom ?
Correct, no co-dom.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
Okay, I think I get the super form then. The het-marker confuses me though. Does that mean all zero's are het-supers?

This is where it gets really confusing. According to JMG's breedings, not always. If you are breeding with a Super zero/stinger, then yes. But they have had some visuals from het to het breedings that proved not het.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
Basically the het marker can become it's own pattern mutation. It is much better described above in JMG's release. I took an excerpt from their release and pasted it below:

"We have come to the conclusion as well that some stingers and zeros that were from het X het super zero or stinger breedings may not be heterozygous for super zero or super stinger even though they display the connecting back pattern. With some pattern / color hereditary traits there are other genetics aside from the main mutation at work that can alter anything. With some morphs there can be a pattern mutating allele inseparable from the main mutation allele seen in some recessive pattern mutations such as the Super zero."
 
Messages
413
Location
az
Wow so by breeding a zero to a patternless you get zeros het patternless. And look like zeros ?
If you breed them back then you get ? Normals but het zero ? Or even Patternless Zero ?
But if you breed a super zero it cancels out the Anomaly. And returns to a het ?
This Gene was released as a co-dom.
I have seen the Co-dominance work on this morph but Inconsistently.
Could it be just an a abberntness ?
Tuff project to work with. We have tried for 3 seasons now and have only hatched 5 or so Zeros.
This proves it is neither Recessive nor codominant.
This is a GREAT write up on the subject.
Jeff should reply.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
Wow so by breeding a zero to a patternless you get zeros het patternless. And look like zeros ?
Yes, along with normals het for patternless and zero, normals het for neither.

If you breed them back then you get ? Normals but het zero ? Or even Patternless Zero ?
Yes, and maybe. It seems the Patternless gene takes over the zeros. JMG would have to comment on this because I have no experience with Patternless.

But if you breed a super zero it cancels out the Anomaly. And returns to a het ?
I don't understand what you mean by canceling out anomaly? Please look at the breeding pairings above to understand what a super zero will produce. It all depends on what it is breed to.

This Gene was released as a co-dom.
I have seen the Co-dominance work on this morph but Inconsistently.
JMG originally released it as a codom, then they released the statement above, did you read it? Please list your breeding project and what was breed to what so we can better understand. I have heard of this before but it turned out that the other breeders all had patternless in the blood line.

Could it be just an a abberntness ?
Did you mean to use another word here?


Tuff project to work with. We have tried for 3 seasons now and have only hatched 5 or so Zeros. This proves it is neither Recessive nor codominant.
Hmmm..... 3 seasons and only 5 zeros. Do you still think it is like codom, sounds like simple recessive results. Please list you breeding pairings so we can better understand.

This is a GREAT write up on the subject.
Jeff should reply.
Did you read the release at the beginning of this thread? It might answer some of your questions.
 

EverEvolvingExotics

New Member
Messages
394
Location
Arizona
Basically the het marker can become it's own pattern mutation. It is much better described above in JMG's release. I took an excerpt from their release and pasted it below:

"We have come to the conclusion as well that some stingers and zeros that were from het X het super zero or stinger breedings may not be heterozygous for super zero or super stinger even though they display the connecting back pattern. With some pattern / color hereditary traits there are other genetics aside from the main mutation at work that can alter anything. With some morphs there can be a pattern mutating allele inseparable from the main mutation allele seen in some recessive pattern mutations such as the Super zero."

This is still a relatively new gene, being so these results do not prove this theory as fact. To play Devil's advocate, just because an apparent visual hasn't popped out from breeding trials doesn't prove that the animal doesn't carry the gene. I've talked to a number of large scale Ball Python breeders that have gone 4-6 seasons breeding a visual to a het without producing a single visual hatchling until they finally did. The odd gods were just horrible to them until they finally succeeded. Just think if they would have dismissed the project...:main_no:
 

Fatal_S

Mel's Exotics
Messages
147
Location
Winnipeg, MB
Breeding a super to a normal, will you always get zeros/stingers? The OP says you get 100% het supers, will they all have the het marker (zero/stinger)?
 

EverEvolvingExotics

New Member
Messages
394
Location
Arizona
Breeding a super to a normal, will you always get zeros/stingers? The OP says you get 100% het supers, will they all have the het marker (zero/stinger)?

If you look at Thad's ads, at least what I've seen for sale, only around half of the "100% het. Supers" look normal, showing no indication of the typical Zero or Stinger pattern. This is obviously only what I've seen, I'm assuming the amount of "het markers" hatched are variable depending on each clutch.
 
Last edited:

Fatal_S

Mel's Exotics
Messages
147
Location
Winnipeg, MB
The normal-het-supers are what made me so confused, that's why I contacted Thad to ask about this morph. I keep checking his available page and getting confused, but I want to get some zeros and supers from him, so I'm trying to figure our what I'll be getting.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
This is still a relatively new gene, being so these results do not prove this theory as fact. To play Devil's advocate, just because an apparent visual hasn't popped out from breeding trials doesn't prove that the animal doesn't carry the gene. I've talked to a number of large scale Ball Python breeders that have gone 4-6 seasons breeding a visual to a het without producing a single visual hatchling until they finally did. The odd gods were just horrible to them until they finally succeeded. Just think if they would have dismissed the project...:main_no:

The comment you commenting on is the release from JMG. Jeff would have to give you his breeding #'s to tell you why he came up with this conclusion. I have seen/heard of whole snake clutches producing all visuals or all non-visuals from simple recessive morphs so I understand what you are asking here. I do also believe that there is more to this gene than we understand at this point.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
If you look at Thad's ads, at least what I've seen for sale, only around half of the "100% het. Supers" look normal, showing no indication of the typical Zero or Stinger pattern. This is obviously only what I've seen, I'm assuming the amount of "het markers" hatched are variable depending on each clutch.

All of my 100% het Supers that look normal came from Super Zero x Normal breeding. All of my Stinger/Zero 100% het Super Stinger/Zero came from 100% het (non-visual and visuals) x Super Zero/Stinger. For me it did not matter the clutch, but the mother and her genetics. I contribute this to my male being a Super Zero/Stinger, therefore making all the first generation babies non-visual hets, 2nd generation all visuals or Supers.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
Breeding a super to a normal, will you always get zeros/stingers? The OP says you get 100% het supers, will they all have the het marker (zero/stinger)?
I breed a Super Zero x Normal(5 of them) I hatched out around 30 babies and none of them were visuals.
 

Visit our friends

Top