SBP
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At what percent accuracy can most breeders sex a baby Leopard Gecko?
Steve
Steve
At what percent accuracy......
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Some people are doing well sexing geckos of any age, even newly hatched, by "candling" the vent area and visualizing the veins to the hemipenis (or their absence). There's a long thread about this on the forums about this. I have not had any luck with this. I had a very hard time last season sexing them, even with a 60x loupe, though I think in the end I got it right. I hope never to produce males again; it was too stressful. (if you look at my age in my profile, you will also see that my eyes are not young, like the rest of me, and that definitely didn't help)
Aliza
Aliza
Do you mean temperature sexing (incubating at specific temps to produce more males or more females) or just identifying the sex of existing hatchlings?
For existing hatchlings that were not incubated specifically to produce mostly males or mostly females, it depends on the age of the hatchling. Breeders tend not to lie about this. If they can sex a gecko and are confident in that determination, they will say so. If breeder is competent and well established and they say sex is 100%, you're pretty safe believing them. Otherwise they may say, "probable male" or "probable female".
If breeder is temperature sexing, they may say "probable" based on temperature sexing.
If you're worried about things being absolutely 100%, don't buy hatchlings. Once leos approach adulthood, it becomes very easy to determine their sex for sure.
For existing hatchlings that were not incubated specifically to produce mostly males or mostly females, it depends on the age of the hatchling. Breeders tend not to lie about this. If they can sex a gecko and are confident in that determination, they will say so. If breeder is competent and well established and they say sex is 100%, you're pretty safe believing them. Otherwise they may say, "probable male" or "probable female".
If breeder is temperature sexing, they may say "probable" based on temperature sexing.
If you're worried about things being absolutely 100%, don't buy hatchlings. Once leos approach adulthood, it becomes very easy to determine their sex for sure.
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SBP
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Thanks, used to breed HOTS so you can pop, probe,etc etc didn't know about baby geckos. I am in the midst of getting my first LG and canceled my first order due to concerns about crypto, now I'm really questioning whether to buy one.
Steve
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Could you say a little more about your crypto concern (without mentioning specific breeders)? Was there reason to suspect or did the idea that crypto is around put you off?
Aliza
Aliza
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Well, I asked the breeder if they did fecal exams and they said they ran random ones. I asked if they could guarantee the animals did'nt have it and they were very honest saying "its extremely prevalent among LG's and no we can not guarantee it"
I thought I found a very beautiful, intelligent, interesting, safe and all around great Reptile to keep as a pet and the prevalence of crypto really concerns me.
I am very conflicted. I am not interested in a morph, just a classic and the smaller breeders that I guess are more apt to guarantee "no crypto" or are less likely to have it among their animals don't seem to breed them that much if at all.
Thanks again for the reply,
Steve
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So this is what I can tell you from my personal experience:
This is my 10th season breeding leopard geckos (I also breed African Fat tails, gargoyles and Coleonyx geckos). When I first started 10 years ago, I did get a few geckos from large pet stores, but for the past 8-9 years, all my geckos have come from breeders that I trust (not that they can guarantee 100% that none of their geckos have crypto). I have never had problems with crypto or any leopard gecko disease that affected a bunch of my geckos (besides bites or other injuries, the only significant medical problems I've had in the past 10 years are very occasional respiratory infections, one case of egg binding and 2 sudden, inexplicable deaths, not due to crypto given the progression).
Someone on another forum suggested that breeders should test all their geckos for crypto and send a certificate to buyers. At $35 or so per test, that's not something I feel I can do. I guess if a customer wanted to buy a gecko from me and requested I test for crypto and was willing to pay the fee, I'd do it. Clearly if any gecko I own did develop crypto I'd test everyone and bear the cost.
To my mind it's a little like bedbugs. I'm a home care therapist and I go into 3-5 homes every day. There's a lot of publicity about the bedbug epidemic in the area where I live. I try to be reasonably careful (but I'm not going to go into every house wearing disposable gowns and booties nor am I going to fumigate myself every day before I go back into my own house), but I'm not going to quite my job or obsess about the possibility of bedbugs. I've been doing home care for 30 years and have not had the problem yet (knock on wood).
I think crypto is something to be aware of and concerned about. It informs my decision not to buy from big pet stores because I think there's less control of inventory. While it's true that there may be many gecko keepers dealing with crypto who just don't dare post on forums, I've only seen one "my gecko has crypto" thread on all of the 5 forums I read (and it wasn't on this one).
I'm not trying to convince you to get a leopard gecko no matter what, but did want to make the point that the prevalence of crypto may not be as rampant as some sources suggest. I hope you come up with something that works for you and that you continue to get enjoyment from reptile keeping.
Aliza
This is my 10th season breeding leopard geckos (I also breed African Fat tails, gargoyles and Coleonyx geckos). When I first started 10 years ago, I did get a few geckos from large pet stores, but for the past 8-9 years, all my geckos have come from breeders that I trust (not that they can guarantee 100% that none of their geckos have crypto). I have never had problems with crypto or any leopard gecko disease that affected a bunch of my geckos (besides bites or other injuries, the only significant medical problems I've had in the past 10 years are very occasional respiratory infections, one case of egg binding and 2 sudden, inexplicable deaths, not due to crypto given the progression).
Someone on another forum suggested that breeders should test all their geckos for crypto and send a certificate to buyers. At $35 or so per test, that's not something I feel I can do. I guess if a customer wanted to buy a gecko from me and requested I test for crypto and was willing to pay the fee, I'd do it. Clearly if any gecko I own did develop crypto I'd test everyone and bear the cost.
To my mind it's a little like bedbugs. I'm a home care therapist and I go into 3-5 homes every day. There's a lot of publicity about the bedbug epidemic in the area where I live. I try to be reasonably careful (but I'm not going to go into every house wearing disposable gowns and booties nor am I going to fumigate myself every day before I go back into my own house), but I'm not going to quite my job or obsess about the possibility of bedbugs. I've been doing home care for 30 years and have not had the problem yet (knock on wood).
I think crypto is something to be aware of and concerned about. It informs my decision not to buy from big pet stores because I think there's less control of inventory. While it's true that there may be many gecko keepers dealing with crypto who just don't dare post on forums, I've only seen one "my gecko has crypto" thread on all of the 5 forums I read (and it wasn't on this one).
I'm not trying to convince you to get a leopard gecko no matter what, but did want to make the point that the prevalence of crypto may not be as rampant as some sources suggest. I hope you come up with something that works for you and that you continue to get enjoyment from reptile keeping.
Aliza
SBP
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I work in the Mental Health Field, oddly enough I totally get the bed bug comparison
I guess my next step is to find someone with a nice neonate classic. That will be the hard part.Steve
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Aliza is spot on in her response. I've bought geckos from at least a half dozen breeders and never had an issue with crypto. It sounds to me like you got an honest answer from the breeder. If they sais "Sure I guarantee!" I would be more skeptical...haha. From what I've heard, general fecal exams can be fairly inaccurate when it comes to crypto. There's a PCR test that costs about $30 that you can mail a stool sample to have done that's considered the most accurate test out there. Many breeders do this test on any new animals they get into their collections to protect themselves and their investment. Crypto can lie dormant in a healthy geckos system so without the test on the specific animal in question it can be hard to know for sure. They can also contract it easily and it is very hard to kill so if, for example, someone buys a gecko from me and keeps it in a cage they had used for another leopard gecko a few years ago or maybe buys a cage used at a garage sale the new gecko could contract crypto and test positive. Once they're out of your hands you just don't know!
That said, I don't think it's all that common and shouldn't be a major concern if you are buying from good breeders, large or small. Check for feedback on them here or the Board of Inquiry on fauna classifieds. That should give you an idea if people have gotten healthy geckos they are happy with from them before
As for cool classic geckos, there are lots of folks breeding subspecies. They're cool and natural looking! Might be something to look into?
That said, I don't think it's all that common and shouldn't be a major concern if you are buying from good breeders, large or small. Check for feedback on them here or the Board of Inquiry on fauna classifieds. That should give you an idea if people have gotten healthy geckos they are happy with from them before
As for cool classic geckos, there are lots of folks breeding subspecies. They're cool and natural looking! Might be something to look into?
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Oh and to your original question it may depend on the breeder. I have had close to 100% accuracy based on the temperature I incubate at (82 for female and 88 for male) and for ones that weren't incubated at a "for sure" temperature I can tell their gender by 15g at the latest. For other breeders using an incubator with a less stable temperature or are incubating at an "in between" temperature their accuracy may be lower.
SBP
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Thanks for all this great information and also for making me feel at home here and more comfortable regarding the crypto issue! I am really looking for a neonate classic that wont run more than $20. I am wondering if going to a pet store and finding a visibly healthy one (based on industry and hobbyist standards) would be the best? Hopefully a breeder will read this and PM me or reply in the thread with what I am looking for since they aren't very popular. I really am open to any advice now that I have made the decision to purchase one. I am also looking at the monetary aspect of this too as I stated above.
Again, thanks and best wish's!
Steve
Again, thanks and best wish's!
Steve
DrCarrotTail
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If you're looking for a gecko around $20 your best bet would be a pet store or reptile show. You may get really lucky but most of the geckos around that price will be pet quality and have a slight defect, unknown genetic backgrounds or possibly double hets from a test breeding. Since there are three incompatible albino strains in leopard geckos most folks that are breeding try to guarantee that their animals only have genes for one strain and the other two are not present. Because of this, having more than one strain as a possibility greatly reduces the value of any babies to breeders but it doesn't make them any less awesome as pets! Good luck finding what you're after!
SBP
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Thankyou
Again thankyou! I am ok with unknown genetic background and double hets as long as there are no defects. I am leaning toward a larger breeder that sells classics for $20. Am I really looking at a big difference getting it say from ReptMart vs +++++ in terms of quality?
Steve
Again thankyou! I am ok with unknown genetic background and double hets as long as there are no defects. I am leaning toward a larger breeder that sells classics for $20. Am I really looking at a big difference getting it say from ReptMart vs +++++ in terms of quality?
Steve
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I don't think there will be much of a difference among the quality you get from any chain pet stores. Most are supplied by one of a handful of big breeders in the US. Just be aware that the babies they're selling have been put under extreme stress. They are usually shipped to the store before they are a week old, kept in crowded and sometimes unsanitary conditions from which they can pick up diseases, and have to compete for food/shelter/water/heat etc. I don't like supporting unethical practices like these and am unwilling to put the rest of my geckos at risk so I choose to only buy geckos from breeders I know or come to know and trust.
That said, individual pet stores vary really widely in the health of their animals and the conditions they're kept in. I would go to your local store and check out their babies and setups. The better stores near me have a moist hide and ample hiding places for their geckos and, while some may be a bit thinner than others they are generally in good health. The worse ones have a heat lamp and babies with stuck shed all over them that are often missing tails and look so skinny that they are probably near death. If they look good then it's more promising that you'll get a healthy baby. I would also check out yelp reviews or reviews on other sites and see if other folks have had positive experiences. You may find nothing but you also may find someone saying their gecko had crypto from that store and, since its easily transmitted and hard to kill, ones in the sales cage there may be at risk if the complaint was valid. If both of those things check out okay I would decide what you want a gecko to look like and pick one up like it! They will change drastically as they grow. May with bands become solid orange but they can also keep lots of spots as well.
That said, individual pet stores vary really widely in the health of their animals and the conditions they're kept in. I would go to your local store and check out their babies and setups. The better stores near me have a moist hide and ample hiding places for their geckos and, while some may be a bit thinner than others they are generally in good health. The worse ones have a heat lamp and babies with stuck shed all over them that are often missing tails and look so skinny that they are probably near death. If they look good then it's more promising that you'll get a healthy baby. I would also check out yelp reviews or reviews on other sites and see if other folks have had positive experiences. You may find nothing but you also may find someone saying their gecko had crypto from that store and, since its easily transmitted and hard to kill, ones in the sales cage there may be at risk if the complaint was valid. If both of those things check out okay I would decide what you want a gecko to look like and pick one up like it! They will change drastically as they grow. May with bands become solid orange but they can also keep lots of spots as well.
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