This may be a stupid idea, but here it goes... Enigma fund?

The truth is that we've reached a point where all we can do about enigmas is to speculate. There are so many things we don't know about them... Like, what is the genetic anomaly that produces them? How does it work? Under which conditions do they produce animals with issues? Can these animals be treated? Why does it give so many different results when combined to other genes? Etc.

Without further scientific research, we may never know. I read in other post that Kelli Hammack was thinking about bringing one of her enigmas to a lab so they could study it. In my opinion, it's a bit unfair that just one person has to pay for it when there is so many people interested in this morph, and with financial help maybe more complex tests can be done to get more detailed results.

I'm fairly new to the herp world (like three years) and I don't know if something like this has been done before. I mean, doing research about a morph so thoroughly. Maybe it wasn't needed until now, but I think this case is a bit controversial and we need some official answers.

Opinions?

The reason that all things in science are usually done by one person, is that the results of a research are published most of the times. The authors get fame, credits and funding for publishing. It isn't very common for not scientist to do fund raising, or you have to arrange to be a co-author of the article... That's how it's done in Holland anyway and I can imagine that in other countries it works the same way...

More reasonable is that people share their outcomes with scientist, so they can do the math, comparison etc etc and gather information (in a different way) about the behavior of the enigma gene.

Greets,

Stevie

I think it might be possible to get someone interested in studying the genetics of the Enigmas. The descriptions I've heard and the videos look a lot like a stargazer mouse which is used for various studies already. (What kind, not sure exactly.) Though I don't know if you would really want to get them interested in geckos as a model since then they would be breeding enigmas to HAVE the problem, rather than figuring it out and correcting it...

I'm super interested in what the problem is though- so many possibilities! It could be a cranial nerve deficit, or something in the brain (and several possibilities for which part, too) or it could be more a muscle problem... If I had one of these kiddos I think it would be in the CT and MRI as soon as I asked the vet how we could do the anesthesia safely. And I think that I heard mention of some sort of test for vision back when we were trying to figure out how blind my Bell gecko is. But it was really expensive and in my case wouldn't have changed anything. But for the Enigmas- to see if they are blind or if it's a problem somewhere else would be really helpful.

As for a fund- I know that I would pay it for my personal pets and share the knowledge (probably gush a bit if it's something cool), but as I really don't have interest in the whole breeding and morph thing beyond looking at all the pretty pics that get posted... I don't know that I'd really just give money for lab testing. Maybe if you did like a raffle kind of thing? Of calendars or framed photos or I dunno- heat pads or something? ("Proceeds benefit enigma research!")

Best might be for everyone that has an affected gecko to do tests individually, then pool knowledge of what tests are most telling. It seems to me that a potentially genetic disease affecting geckos is probably pretty low on a priority list for study. You never know, though- maybe someone on here needs a PhD or masters thesis in genetics?

I know geckos won't be an interesting subject for most scientists... What I'm suggesting is that we pay the lab with common funds to do the tests we want them to do.

I think that would be far more useful and profitable that just doing tests individually and sharing the results. This way, people that can't afford paying the tests or just don't want to spend that much in something that won't really bring any short-term profits... Are given the chance to contribute.

That's my case. To finance a research myself would be too much for me. What I want to say is that I wouldn't pay something like that in full just to satisfy my curiosity. But if it was a quantity that wouldn't affect me that much... Let's say, 20 bucks every month, I would be happy to contribute.

What I am suggesting is that one person acts as a contact between the lab and the contributors, and coordinates everything. I think we would need a reputable veterinarian to adivise us about which tests would be more interesting to our objectives. Then announce the contributors which tests are to be performed and what is expected to come out of it. When the tests to do are decided, we would just have to hand the money to the lab that will perform them and wait the results. Then the results would be interpreted by the vet, and the conclusions announced to the contributors. That's what I originally had in mind.

What I'm afraid is that it would be a huge burden to the person coordinating it all.

Sandra, I don't think it's really unfair. If Kelli really needed help she would probably ask. She may have some connections or something at a lab. I know however the one and only way to find out the genetics of the enigma. A karyotype must be done at a lab with the proper equipment and then it must be compared to the karyotype of a normal leopard gecko (as close to WC as possible). This will show us EVERYTHING, including what is effecting the animals (if the karyotyped animal is effected by circling or head tilt), and also the random mutation in the gene that caused the enigma to become what it is.

Unfortunately, karyotypes are VERY expensive, upwards of $10,000 for two of them. So Kelli, if you do need people to pitch in for the karyotyping, let us all know because I'm sure there are people who are willing to help out.

malt_geckos said:

Sandra, I don't think it's really unfair. If Kelli really needed help she would probably ask. She may have some connections or something at a lab.

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Just to make it clear, I didn't mean anything by that. I refered to all people that are doing research for themselves if there are any, and used her as an example because she's the only one I know who does. Not that she in particular needs any help

Very interesting information. If it is as you say, a karyotype would be a good option, but I don't know if enigma owners would be willing to finance something that expensive. I would love to see it though.

Sandra, I don't think it's really unfair. If Kelli really needed help she would probably ask. She may have some connections or something at a lab. I know however the one and only way to find out the genetics of the enigma. A karyotype must be done at a lab with the proper equipment and then it must be compared to the karyotype of a normal leopard gecko (as close to WC as possible). This will show us EVERYTHING, including what is effecting the animals (if the karyotyped animal is effected by circling or head tilt), and also the random mutation in the gene that caused the enigma to become what it is.

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A karyotype against a wild caught leo wouldn't show you the specific anomoly....the easiest way to identify the specific anomoly would be to karyotype against another enigma with close to identical genetics b/c you want the differences to stand out.

Sandra, it's all good! I didn't mean anything by my comment (in a rude way...it was 5 am. lol)

Stina- It would work better to compare karyotypes of a F1 to an enigma since we don't know what we are looking for. And we have no idea if an enigma that's not displaying any issues is carrying the trait for the "disorder". We could always have three done. One on a normal enigma, one on an effected enigma, and one on a F1 or F2...

I think that this is a great idea, but, all of this testing would be very pricey, the tests, and the lizards involved (It would take numerous animals).

Every time a new morph is discovered, there are issues with it, and within several years, the issue is usually resolved. The issues with Enigmas seem to be attributed to inbreeding, so the more people that have Enigmas, the better,

-Nate

The problem is the

RoyalCityReptiles said:

Every time a new morph is discovered, there are issues with it, and within several years, the issue is usually resolved. The issues with Enigmas seem to be attributed to inbreeding, so the more people that have Enigmas, the better

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I don't think the issue is a consequence of inbreeding. The risk of inbreeding is that two members of the same family are more likely to be heterozygous for the same undesirable recessive mutations. That's why, while the parents are unaffected, there is a higher possibility that they produce offspring that exhibits those problems (homozygous of that defect).

If the issues where due to that, enigmas bred to totally unrelated animals wouldn't produce any animals with issues.

I don't think the problem's going to be solved by just sitting and waiting.

Sandra said:

I don't think the issue is a consequence of inbreeding. The risk of inbreeding is that two members of the same family are more likely to be heterozygous for the same undesirable recessive mutations. That's why, while the parents are unaffected, there is a higher possibility that they produce offspring that exhibits those problems (homozygous of that defect).

If the issues where due to that, enigmas bred to totally unrelated animals wouldn't produce any animals with issues.

I don't think the problem's going to be solved by just sitting and waiting.

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What I was saying was that the original group of enigmas, was inbred, and since then, the issue is showing up less and less because the are not being inbred as much. No one is sitting and waiting for the neurological issues to disappear, everyone is trying their best to remove it from the line.

Red stripes (apparently) had a similar issue, the originals (apparently) had a lot of issues, from shortened life spans to issues with keeping weight on. so, through outbreeding, that issue is being dealt with. I am suggesting that we should continue on this line, because it has proven viable with other issues with other animals. And sometimes, these issues cannot be removed, so the Line is terminated.

you had said, " If the issues where due to that (inbreeding), enigmas bred to totally unrelated animals wouldn't produce any animals with issues.". I am not sure if that is true. do you have any evidence to back up your theory?? I am asking because of a previous statement of yours:"The truth is that we've reached a point where all we can do about enigmas is to speculate."

-Nate

I tried to explain before but it seems that I didn't it right. The theory that enigma's issues are due to inbreeding implies that the issues are a recessive mutation. The defects that come from inbreeding, they are all due to hidden recessive mutations.

Imagine that a person, which is heterozygous for a mutation, has several children. Some of them are hets and some are not. Now, one of the daughters and one of the sons, both hets, have another child. That child would have a 1/4 chance to be homozygous (and then, exhibiting it) of that genetic mutation.

That's where all the problems of impotence, subnormality, etc some dynasties had come from, and why inbreeding is so dangerous.

We are assuming then that enigmas with issues are homozygous of some undesirable recessive mutation. If they were bred to an unrelated animal, all the offspring would be heterozygous for that defect and none of them would be showing it phenotipically. But enigmas bred to unrelated animals do produce offspring with issues sometimes.

Also, I don't know of any normal enigma siblings that show this issues. It could be that it is a polygenetic trait that only works when the enigma gene is present too, but I think it's more probable that it is just something that is part of enigmas and not a different gene.