Do reptiles have bonds with thier owners?

Gregg M said:

I am pretty certain it is recognition more than association... It is not thought process though... They do not know their names nor will they respond to them... It is instinctive reflex to respond to something... Like when you hear a loud, sudden noise, you instinctively go into flight of fight mode... The feeling you get when a balloon is popped when you do not expect it is that mode...

Certain sounds trigger feed responses in animals with even the most underdeveloped brains... Humans are recognized as a food source and part of their landscape... Thats why it seem as though your gecko associates or interacts with you...

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Maybe I need a better understanding between the difference of
recognition and association as aplyed to animal behavior.

You are saying it's "recognition", can you explain the difference.
If it's response to stimulus, isn't that the same as association?

When my leo gets excited, and comes running out of his hide when
he sees the feeding tongs, is that not a conditioned response?
Is he not "associating" the tongs with food? Doesn't he have to
"recognize" before the association can be made?

nats said:

I have see pics of lizard brains before.
They are just a stem, and the areas of the brain which are
responsible for cognitive ability are missing.

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Just because they don't have the part of the brain that we think causes so called "higher thoughts" in us doesn't mean that reptiles don't/can't have similar thoughts/feelings, etc. It hasn't been proven or disproved yet.

They used to think that birds didn't have 'higher thoughts' until Dr. Pepperberg and others proved that parrots are extremely intelligent and others worked out that songbirds have highly evolved brains that are different than ours, but potentially no less powerful. Similarly I am no more willing to say that reptiles are absolutely 'lower' animals and can't form bonds... or whatever cognitive thing you want to insert in there. It used to be "known" that no creature but humans can recognize 'self'- but now many species pass the mirror test. It used to be "proven" that Africans are dumber than Europeans because their brain case is smaller (I think it has since been proven that the data was forged and the opposite is true... the skull part, that is).

Anyway... I still maintain that my geckos are more affectionate than the cats. Granted, I don't particularly like cats. But insert 'cat' where you have 'gecko' and all the arguments sound the same. Cats only like you because you feed them. Cats associate you with good things and have been conditioned to trust you.

And my gecko DID come when called- you have to spend a lot a lot of time socializing them and have a special gecko to get that kind of bond going- I basically had her with me every waking moment of my childhood/ adolescence- we had a good decade + together. She quite enjoyed the chin rubs- would sprawl out on my arm, or a book I was reading and lift her little head with eyes closed. I can't prove it with a video or anything (well, it's possible, but that camera is old and I don't even know if we have the proper cords for it anymore). Others can verify, though. My mom would be thrilled to write a letter, I'm sure (she loves threatening to do so... even though I'm way past the age for notes to teachers :main_rolleyes.

My guys now... no, I don't spend enough time with them. We only have an understanding and a trust kind of thing. Which is sad, but I can't exactly wear a gecko to work, can I? (Heh... actually, that would be sort of fun. But it would likely only happen once/job).

I agree they aren't the smartest creatures on the planet. They're little solitary lizards that live relatively short lives- what need have they for social skills and intellect beyond the rudimentary? Should we just dismiss the possibility as not true because they are 'just' reptiles? Of course not.

My feeling on the matter is that we really don't know about what our own brains can do, can we really say what a leopard gecko's brain can do? Like Alusdra said, there have been many "proven" facts over the years that have been proven false later. Personally I live by the belief that everything is fact until proven false...then the cycle repeats... In our world of rapidly changing science, you can't stick hard to old beliefs and you sorta have to go with the flow. If this is what science says now, so be it, it will say that until proven wrong and the cycle of constantly proving old "facts" wrong will continue.

Now as for my beliefs about the intelligence of leos, I think they're a lot smarter than they look. I've seen people train gold fish to do tricks, in my betta breeding days I had a couple bettas trained to jump on command (something I did out of boredom, really wasn't that hard surprisingly). Now I'm pretty sure a leo is way more intelligent than a fish. If a fish (not talking a shark as they have been proven to be very intelligent) has the ability to learn tricks, I'm sure a leo can learn how to trust certain humans and may actually have other abilities that we just don't know about.

Scientists and doctors debate enough about the human mind and there's tons of studies on that, however really not too many people look into the minds of animals and far fewer people look into the minds of leos. As always I stand on my fence and say "we need more info..."

Time and time again, some of you insist on putting the human brain into this thread... The human brain has nothing to do with reptiles... The mysteries of the human brain are mysteries because of its complexity...

There is nothing complex or evolved about the reptilian brain making it A LOT less mysterious..

Gregg M said:

Time and time again, some of you insist on putting the human brain into this thread... The human brain has nothing to do with reptiles... The mysteries of the human brain are mysteries because of its complexity...

There is nothing complex or evolved about the reptilian brain making it A LOT less mysterious..

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By time and time do you mean the two times it was mentioned and used just as an example of previous "known facts" not even comparing it to a reptile brain? Seriously, I don't appreciate the attitude you've been giving. I think other people should have a chance to state their opinions without being mocked and essentially called a liar. That's just plain rude and uncalled for. Now that that's been said, I hope we can keep this topic from getting too emotional and out of control because I really do hate the nasty bitter fighting topics.

As for my opinions on the brain of any animal that is not a human (as humans are animals too), until just as much research is done on it as the research on the human brain has been done, I can't safely agree with what current science says at the moment. Knowing how many times science of the times has been consistently proven wrong I can't ever fully agree with what scientists say so I stand safely on the fence of pretty much every scientific topic. However I do believe it's false that leopard geckos just have a fight or flight response as if they did they wouldn't sit calmly on their owners and I'm sure we'd have some pretty bloodied up hands all the time from handling them. I think it's not far fetched for them to be more intelligent than we think they are but until science proves it I stay on the fence. One of the wonders of the natural world is that there is complexity in simplicity all over the place. I don't think science will ever fully understand all of what Mother Nature has created and I don't think it's meant to. However we go with what we got at the time. It used to be thought that the bigger the brain the smarter something is but that has been proven to not always be true. I like stay either way on most arguments as I know that later generations will likely prove me wrong and I don't want to look like a fool then. Just my humble opinion on the matter.

i agree with vampyric angel i think that reptiles come to recognize you as a food source or a source of survival and build trust in you and they also do seem like they like the attention

I say yes I have relationships with alot of my geckos and they seem to remember and trust and love being with me I have a couple that every time I open there tubs they go right up my arms and get on my shoulders and they stay there for as long as I let them they almost seem to cuddle with my neck as they lay there and sleep it sure seems like they love it especially when I put em back they look depressed that they are done, I dont think any one knows for sure I know birds can have relationships with humans why cant reptiles they are not much different.

Steven210 said:

Everyone knows that mammals (dogs, cats, pigs, horses etc...) and humans can develop strong bonds of affection. Some protect their owners and trust them as if they were the same species. Do you think reptiles develop bonds with their owners?? Or do they simply just associate you with food and just tolerate being handled? I have never heard of a reptile exhibiting a bond or sense of loyalty. Dont get me wrong, I think reptiles are some of the most cunning and smartest animals on the planet. I recently got a juvenile leopard gecko 4 weeks ago and a juvenile albino corn snake 3 days ago. My gecko is absolutely terrified of me and hates being touched. My corn snake on the other hand lets me cup her in my hands and hold her and hasn't bit me yet. I love my two reptiles so much and enjoy taking care of them and watching them feed (even though I havent fed my snake yet tomorrow will be her first feeding!) But anyway what im trying to say is... Do you think your pet reptile recognizes you more than anyone else?? or your just the hand that feeds them and simply tolerates you

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BettaDragon said:

By time and time do you mean the two times it was mentioned and used just as an example of previous "known facts" not even comparing it to a reptile brain? Seriously, I don't appreciate the attitude you've been giving. I think other people should have a chance to state their opinions without being mocked and essentially called a liar. That's just plain rude and uncalled for.

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The human brain is COMPLEX and the reptilian brain is BASIC... IT IS SCIENTIFCALLY PROVEN that reptiles do not have emotional bonds ESPECIALLY with their human ownwers... You need to separate YOUR emotional attachment with your pet and look at the facts...

If you put your gecko on the grpond and walked away, it would not follow you... Infact once its instictive reaction kicks in from being "free" it would flee and go into hiding and WOULD NOT come out no matter how many times you called its cute little gecko name out...

Go ahead and stay on the fence... Unfortunately in this situation, there is no grey area... Why some refuse to see the facts in this particular matter is beyond me... Maybe some need to feel loved and are not good at real human relationships... Whats better than having a relationship with something that can not resist your advances and cant srgue with you... Trust the fact that your gecko would rather be left alone than to have you pick it up, pet it and rub its chin...

There is no trust in a reptile to human relationship... You are either sensed as a threat or part of its normal habitat...

As far as not appreciating the attitude goes, show me where I had an attitude... Dont be a cry baby because someone said something you did not like or do not agree with... Not once in this thread did I give anyone an attitude and to be honest, if you do not like my attitude, I can give a rats behind... Dont like what I write, dont read it...SIMPLE... I hope you didnt think that your little post was going to change me or how I write things out... It also does not change what has already been proven by neurological tests done on reptiles...

Did you know that there is not one species of reptile that can navigate a mouse maze... LOL... But yeah, they are capable of complex thought and emotional attachment even though they lack the parts of the brain responsible:main_rolleyes:...

Also, reptiles do not look depressed... They do not have the facial muscles to make any type of facial expression... This thread is just starting to get silly now... Your geckos do not love you nor do they get sad when its time to go back in their cage...

Gecko Euphoria said:

I know birds can have relationships with humans why cant reptiles they are not much different.

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Because birds evolved social behaviors used to better their chances of survival and their brains are much more complex compared to reptiles... Birds bond with eachother in the wild and learn to bond with their human ownwer... It is just a natural behavior... Some birds also learn to talk... Does this mean reptiles can too??? LOL... Reptiles never needed to evolve social behaviors therefor never developed the need to bond or stick together in numbers...

Bees are docile animals until you smack the nest with a stick :main_laugh:

Hey everyone - we all need to remember that there are lots of new people on these forums (over 300 last month alone!!), so while some answers may seem very simple or obvious to some, other people may have different experiences that they want to share. We all feel passionately about these little guys, and heated discussions are OK, but we all need to remember that not everyone has been keeping/researching leopard geckos (or any reptiles) for long periods of time.

Thanks for helping keep GF.net "drama free."

Let's use a dog for an example. When dogs are bored what do they do? They are attention seeking and destructive. Reptiles on the other hand do none of those things. Thats because their brains arent as advanced as other animals.

Gregg M said:

Did you know that there is not one species of reptile that can navigate a mouse maze...

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I agree with you on the topic for the most part, although the portion I quoted is incorrect. Some chelonians have been shown to be capable.

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Additionally, and this is not to you but to anyone/everyone, intelligence is based on criteria and criteria are based on context. The assignment of criteria is a biased process and lacking in perfection. It is best to consider the context before jumping to a conclusion when the criteria applied may be incorrectly chosen and detection/determination methods available may be inappropriate or insensitive. We draw from a limited data set when making our decisions in any given situation. Intelligence debates tend to be inductive. Instead of testing to decide what intelligence is defined by or as, we assign a meaning to intelligence and then cast off that which does not fall within the terms due to criteria that were chosen in somewhat arbitrary fashion. This is just something to keep in consideration.

For a long, long time I wanted to think that my reptiles "loved" me like my dog does. I've gotten to the point now though where I don't think that they're totally unintelligent, unfeeling beings or anything of that sort, but they don't have the emotional capacity of a dog or similar pet animal. I think that some of my geckos "trust" me a little more, only in the sense that they are more accepting of handling, but I think that's just from doing it a lot. It may or may not be actual trust. But that's what I'll call it for the sake of calling it something. I think that they generally go on instinct. One of my geckos get's excited when he sees me and hears the cricket bag. He scampers out and looks at me with huge excited gecko eyes. He's not happy to see ME though, he's happy that he knows dinner is coming. And some of them enjoy laying on my skin because it's warm, lol.

I love them none the less, but no, they don't love me back, they just appreciate that I let crickets rain from the sky for them.

Baoh said:

I agree with you on the topic for the most part, although the portion I quoted is incorrect. Some chelonians have been shown to be capable.

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Got any literature on the subject??? It would be an interesting read... I am sure there is not much on the net but a point in the correct direction would be cool...

Next Level Geckos said:

Let's use a dog for an example. When dogs are bored what do they do? They are attention seeking and destructive. Reptiles on the other hand do none of those things. Thats because their brains arent as advanced as other animals.

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If one dog out of a hundred dogs is bored, yet does not participate in destructive behavior, is it more intelligent, less intelligent, or equally intelligent in comparison to the other ninety-nine dogs? Is its brain more advanced, less advanced, or equally advanced as the other ninety-nine dogs?

If a human child has Asperger's, complete with eusocial impairment and superior spatial awareness, is its brain more advanced, less advanced, or or equally advanced in comparison to children without the condition?

Selection criteria mean more than people realize. Most humans like to polarize because it is intellectually comfortable. That doesn't make it correct.

Gregg M said:

Got any literature on the subject??? It would be an interesting read... I am sure there is not much on the net but a point in the correct direction would be cool...

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Redfoot tortoise. I actually remember coming across claims about wood turtles, which didn't surprise me, but I haven't been able to locate any legitimate data, sadly.

Not sure that proves or disproves anything... There is not enough data in that particular write up anyway... What was the "treat" at the end of the maze... I am certain that smell might have played a huge role in helping the redfoot, get to the end... I really wish it was more indepth..

The R-complex, also known as the "Reptilian brain", includes the brain stem and cerebellum. The term "Reptilian brain" comes from the fact that a reptile's brain is dominated by the brain stem and cerebellum which controls instinctual survival behaviors. This brain controls the muscles, balance and autonomic functions like breathing and heartbeat... It is primarily reactive to direct stimuli.

I know my gecko doesn't 'love' me, and as much as I wish she were capable of such a complex emotion, I'm simply glad that she doesn't view me as a threat, and associates me with good things like food and warmth. And in that way, isn't it enough? I feel somehow privelaged that she is capable of recognizing me as such anyway and that I don't scare her away. And in that, I think they are capable of 'bonding' but only in the simplest sense of the word. The 'bond' is shared through us providing them with what they need to live and reveling in that fact that we're helping them to do so and we get to see an otherwise shy creature in the wild, thrive right in our living rooms (or reptile rooms as the case may be).

If I want an animal that will respond to its name and give me unconditional love and affection I'll get a dog. Well, in this case, I have a cat, and I know some would beg to differ, but I was raised with felines, and I find them to be affectionate and loving and intelligent and they don't always hang around you for a free ride. The relationship I have with my cats is a friendship as opposed to the master-servant relationship one might have with their dog.

If anything, the geckos are using us for a free ride, if unintentionally.

I wish I could find an old video of a whole bunch of Tegus in a large enclosure seeking out the attention of their keeper... it was somewhere over on Fauna. It would certainly provide a controversial perspective on this subject! I'm going to try and hunt it down.

Golden Gate Geckos said:

I wish I could find an old video of a whole bunch of Tegus in a large enclosure seeking out the attention of their keeper... it was somewhere over on Fauna. It would certainly provide a controversial perspective on this subject! H,,,,/// I'm going to try and hunt it down.

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It wasn't this one, was it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz5mvOpCnvI

I think it may have been this thread I found it in.