Should NORMAL siblings of Enigmas or Mack Snows be sold as "E or MS Siblings"

[Mel&Keith]

Since the normal offspring of Enigmas and Mack Snows for example, don't carry genes for those traits should they be marketed as "Enigma or Mack Snow Siblings"?

Feel free to explain your answer!

 

[bohannbj]

When you start getting into higher end geckos you have to have atleast a basic understanding of genetics. I like it when a breeder tells me that this normal is a sibling of a dominant phenotype, because I know not to buy it. If its normal and the breeder was shooting for an enigma then it is guaranteed homozygous normal. I'm not totally convinced that Macks are Codominate so I'll leave them out of this. The dealer is trying to get people to pay more for his "geneticly less desirables," but if you understand the squares it saves you money.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

They are simply normals...who cares what the siblings are in this case?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

There is a B-I-G breeder who thinks that there can be hets for snows, and sells his geckos that way at a premium. Kind of disappointing...

 

[SteveB]

I'd like to know the lineage, as long as it didn't come at a premium.

 

[David Loftin]

There is a B-I-G breeder who thinks that there can be hets for snows, and sells his geckos that way at a premium. Kind of disappointing...

... Wha? How have I missed this..

 

[TWC]

Enigmas are Enigmas, and should be stated as so. but if they arent Enigma, then they shouldnt be called that, no matter who or what the siblings or parents are.

 

[PaulSage]

I would want to know for one simple reason: If I'm looking for a Bell Albino to out-cross my Mack Snow Bells or my Bell Enigmas, I would want to know (for the sake of gene pool diversity) whether the animal I'm interested in is from a Mack Snow or Enigma breeding. I don't think it warrants adding extra value to said animal, but I do tend to think that having more information at your disposal is valuable.

However, when I sell incomplete dominant or dominant siblings, I don't market them as such simply because there's a plethora of self-proclaimed genetics and marketing "police" who would love to make a field day out of me doing so, even if said offspring were priced in accordance with their actual genetic potential. It's a game I hate playing, but calling BS on the "rules" isn't worth the inevitable ensuing tantrums.

 

[SteveB]

However, when I sell incomplete dominant or dominant siblings, I don't market them as such simply because there's a plethora of self-proclaimed genetics and marketing "police" who would love to make a field day out of me doing so, even if said offspring were priced in accordance with their actual genetic potential. It's a game I hate playing, but calling BS on the "rules" isn't worth the inevitable ensuing tantrums.

I've often wondered how a completely different marketing concept would be viewed-

don't label ANYTHING
give a complete pictoral family tree and allow the customer to determine if it is worth the asking price based on what they can see for themselves.

 

[okapi]

I dont mind it, if the price is right for a normal. I personally think it just shows that the breeder is working on other projects, and not normal X normal. If im intrested in buying a mack snow and I dont see any for sale that I like on any other website, but the breeder is selling normals from a mack project, then I know to check back at a later time to see if there are any macks for sale. This is really useful when a brand new morph comes out and you are trying to find a breeder to buy one from in a year or two. You find out who all has it and can watch the quality of their animals and their ethics over time as you make your decision. If you see that person keeps selling healthy animals/knows their genetics, you will be more inclined to buy from them in the future. But if it becomes obvious that they are just in it for the money, then you have a lasting impression in your head of them so that you dont end up wasting your money. Ive seen a few sites that overpriced mack siblings for the first year or two. But I kept my eyes on the breeders who didnt do that.

 

[nevinm]

i voted no because tomany breeders will sell them for more. i think they should be sold for the price of normals, and if everyone would do that, then i would say yes they should be labled as so. as for the mac pastels/mac sibs i think thats aright to charge a little extra. we have pretty much established a basing for what a mac pastel is, and it should be labled so. all that being said, i want to know who is selling mac snow hets.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

The only reason I will sell a Mack Snow "sibling" as such is because many of mine are not exactly normals, they are Mack Pastels, and we have no idea what is going on with that morph.

I agree, as long as you are not paying a higher price, it is just good information to have. Especially if something unexpected happens from them, and you never can be too sure with Leopard Geckos.

 

[Baysidegeckos]

There is a B-I-G breeder who thinks that there can be hets for snows, and sells his geckos that way at a premium. Kind of disappointing...

LOL..........Yes Marcia and i still see alot of people selling geckos that are "Het snow"........every time i see that it makes my face cringe up!!!!!!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well I hate to say it, but "technically" MS or Enigma siblings would be considered heterozygous for the trait since each offspring carries copies of genes from both parents. This doesn't mean they will carry those genes that could ever be expressed. We all think that 'het' morphs carry only the recessive genes that would be expressed when combined with the same recessive trait, but if you do a Google search on the term heterozygous you will see what it means.

BTW, has anyone done any REAL work on crossing MS or Enigma siblings to see if the co-dominant gene will ever pop out again in later generations?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I have seen one person selling "linebred snow hets" that if I remember correctly, were also Mack Snows. I did not think they were a big breeder at all.

I am not even sure how you would get to be a "big" breeder with that sort of "knowledge", but anyways.

 

[goReptiles]

I'd say normal with an enigma or mack snow sibling. just to know. that or sell as normal with sire x dam parents listing the genetics of the parents.

 

[Baoh]

I'd say normal with an enigma or mack snow sibling. just to know. that or sell as normal with sire x dam parents listing the genetics of the parents.

Exactly this.

 

[Barbel]

I don't think they should be marked as siblings. I think that is a way of trying to trick people that don't fully understand genetics yet, so they can make more money off of a normal. This happens with ball pythons also. I saw a pastel ball python sibling, just a normal, being sold for over $100. The guy kept saying well it's related to this pastel morph so that why it is more, cause you don't know what you can get from it. Yeah, you can't get anything from it. It's a normal!

 

[Baoh]

I don't think they should be marked as siblings. I think that is a way of trying to trick people that don't fully understand genetics yet, so they can make more money off of a normal. This happens with ball pythons also. I saw a pastel ball python sibling, just a normal, being sold for over $100. The guy kept saying well it's related to this pastel morph so that why it is more, cause you don't know what you can get from it. Yeah, you can't get anything from it. It's a normal!

Ignorance does not equal innocence.

Additionally, I have observed for myself, as well as others for themselves, that some non-Enigma siblings from Enigma dams (I don't know about sires) seem to end up lighter or "different" than what one might expect from the standard morph of its kind. I've seen this with Super Snows, for example. If I was scrolling through a person's inventory, looking for something that interests me, I'd like to know this sort of information so that I would not waste my time trying to pass on a non-genetic biochemical downstream side effect. In other words, this information could help tell me why an animal appears as it does. I would not want to buy an animal I do not need for my plans or cannot use the way I intend to because somebody else thought it was either not important or a trick.

 

[acpart]

Well I hate to say it, but "technically" MS or Enigma siblings would be considered heterozygous for the trait since each offspring carries copies of genes from both parents. This doesn't mean they will carry those genes that could ever be expressed. We all think that 'het' morphs carry only the recessive genes that would be expressed when combined with the same recessive trait, but if you do a Google search on the term heterozygous you will see what it means.

BTW, has anyone done any REAL work on crossing MS or Enigma siblings to see if the co-dominant gene will ever pop out again in later generations?

I'm really curious about this. I had always assumed that the enigma genes worked like dominant/recessive except that the enigma gene is dominant over the "normal" gene. If you breed two tremper albino hets, for example, and prove out the offspring, statistically one of them has 2 normal genes (AA), has no potential to produce albinos and is not het for albino. Wouldn't that be the same for an enigma offspring that isn't an enigma, or a Mack snow sibling? Wouldn't that gecko have not inherited any Mack or enigma genes from the parents and be non-het in the same way as the non het product of albino hets?
Let me know what you think.

Aliza