Purchased chameleon @ show, DIED on way home?

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
Hello all. So today I was at a reptile show local to my area, and I'm going to leave out specific details. I found a very nice vendor at the show with a few different types of lizards and small critters. They seemed well established and very informative. So, I purchased a baby veiled chameleon for $50, and he was put on a wet paper towel in a regular clear cup like most critters go home in.

My mom was with me at the time of purchase (i am 19). She and I both inspected the lizards and all of them appeared very healthy and very clean. So, we got the little guy and my mom named him Rango as I am a Johnny Depp fan- LOL. Well, the convention center that this was being held at was about 30 miles from my house- about a 45 minute drive. I purchased this little guy at 2:30pm, and we were on the road back home by 3 after we grabbed supplies for him and made our way back to the car.

About 20 minutes into the trip, he suddenly started freaking out in the cup. I was driving so my mom was in charge of holding him on her lap to keep him safe. She looked down and he hit his head on the side of the cup and then was open mouth breathing. I was driving on a major highway and became a tad bit hysterical and by the time I could pull over, he had fell onto his side, pooped and suddenly died.

It is now 4pm EST, and I called the number on the business card 3 times and left 2 messages, and am waiting to hear back. I know it was busy so that's why I'm not totally freaking out yet, but the only reason that I couldn't turn around to go right back to the show was the opposite lane of traffic to where we had to go was completely backed up for MILES and MILES and the show is nearly over, so by the time we had found a way to turn around and go back we probably would have not made it back to the convention center in time (and also would have had to pay the tolls again as well as an entrance fee AGAIN).


I've never had really any of my pets just.. suddenly die.. I always try my best to take care of them all, and I bought all the appropriate equipment. What am I supposed to do? They are an LLC business. I paid with my PNC debit card, if nothing else can I stop payment to them or something if they won't work with me? $50 isn't an extreme amount of money, but that's beside the point. I don't just buy reptiles to just stick them in a cage and never look at them again, I do honestly care for them quite alot and I was crying on the way home. Wouldn't it be fair that since they are a semi-local business, for them to make arraignments to meet me nearby to do an exchange?
 

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
An acute problem like that, if your initial assessment of health was correct, is a lot more likely to be a result of something he was subjected to during the car ride than it is anything that was ongoing. Chameleons can die from stress, temperature problems and exposure to various airborne contaminants very easily; so without a necropsy that conclusively verifies some pre-existing condition, you have very little basis for a claim against the vendor to begin with.

Beyond that, there should have been terms of sale that you agreed to when you purchased the animal. Some areas have mandatory minimums for guarantee periods with the sale of live pets but most do not. Depending on the terms of sale the buyer was offering, you may or may not have had a guarantee in place protecting you from liability. At shows, many animals are sold "as is" since buyers can directly inspect their purchases and make educated decisions. Many species (chameleons among them) of a more delicate nature also have limited or non-existent guarantees from many vendors. Put simply, many of them are not willing to take responsibility for the conditions of animals which can die so easily if precautions are not taken unless they are in direct control of them.

You should look into the TOS you agreed to at the time of sale. It may not hurt to contact the vendor who supplied you with the animal, they may be willing to work with you based on the details of their guarantee or simply to preserve their relationship with their customer base. I would suggest that you approach them politely however, the overwhelming majority of cases such as the one you described, the fault really lies on the buyer; you are a supplicant making a request, you should not carry yourself as someone in a position to make a demand. Furthermore, if they decline to work with you because their guarantee does not cover the animal or because you are incapable of showing a burden of proof that indicates they are at fault, that is likely their prerogative and would not make them a bad guy under most circumstances.

Pursuit of the matter beyond polite communication is probably only warranted if your (somewhat ambiguous) situation meets some of the following criteria; you have a necropsy performed which conclusively shows fault on the part of the dealer, the dealer is someone with a borderline or negative reputation and a history of selling low-quality animals, the dealer violated the dictates of the terms of sale both parties agreed upon at the time of purchase.
 

tlbowling

Geck~OCD
Messages
1,758
Location
NJ
I was at the same show yesterday, I know exactly who you bought from b/c I was looking at them too. They are probably still cleaning up from the show, I'm sure they'll make it right. Don't throw out the body,put it in the frige incase they want pix.
I'm so sorry, you had to go from excitement to disappointment :( I feel bad for you, I hope everything works out. Maybe they'll replace him, but you'll have to pay shipping?
 
Last edited:

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
Oh and incidentally... reversing a charge as you proposed to do would make you the thief in this situation, as it has so far been presented.
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
Pursuit of the matter beyond polite communication is probably only warranted if your (somewhat ambiguous) situation meets some of the following criteria; you have a necropsy performed which conclusively shows fault on the part of the dealer, the dealer is someone with a borderline or negative reputation and a history of selling low-quality animals, the dealer violated the dictates of the terms of sale both parties agreed upon at the time of purchase.

Thanks.. I understand everything being "as is" and have purchased reptiles from vendors before. I specifically talked to both people at the booth and made sure to ask several times about the car ride home. I told them how far I lived and how long of a drive it would be and they assured me that he would be "absolutely fine" and it was not a problem at all. I had my mom standing with me when I spoke to them as well, and she asked them as well. Both vendors told me that there wasn't technically a guarantee once I set him up at home, which makes sense because if I did something wrong it's not their fault, but he was in the container they put him in, and I followed all the instructions for how to bring him home, and we did not poke him or prod him or anything.


My friend made a point to tell me she didn't understand why they didn't place a branch or something in the cup over the papertowel. She said whenever she's sold them at her previous job, she would put a few twigs in there for them to hold onto because just sticking them on a wet papertowel is very stressful for them.


I looked into the business as they have been around for a while, and there were alot of mixed reviews... some people said they were the best people ever, and others said they were totally shady.. the website looks very resourceful and shows the owner standing with Jeff Corwin and that he has written several reptile care books..

I mean, if they had told me that it was risky to drive with him that far (which in all honesty I've driven home over 3 hours from most reptile shows with critters in the car and they were fine)... I wouldn't have purchased him at that time if they had indicated it might not be safe... and mostly I just feel bad for the little guy :( because in the end he died over nothing...
 

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
Placement of the container can be tremendously important. In the lap of the passenger is a fairly common spot and it's not always ideal. The sun coming through the windshield and then the container can often cause them to over-heat, and it is a spot that gets hit by both the dashboard and floor vents if you had the heat on in the car.

I am not a person inclined to take wild-ass-guesses when it comes to things like this, I am not saying conclusively one way or another what happened without a necropsy being performed; but statistically, stress and heating issues are a fairly common cause of transportation death in some species and groups (chameleons and amphibians are two of the biggest).

Without knowing who it is that sold them and without taking their reputation into account, if you were told there is no guarantee and you proceeded to make the purchase anyway, any refund or replacement is at their discretion. You aren't entitled to it or owed one; they might choose to go out of their way to make you satisfied though. Just stay respectful and you'll have much better chances... and good luck.
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
Thanks.. my mom is having a freaking fit regardless. My mom had the visor down in order to keep sun off him for the reason of over heating. Otherwise it was an ideal temp in my car.. not steaming hot but not ice cold.

Generally, how sensitive are veiled chameleons? From reading online it's my understanding that chameleons are generally sensitive but veiled ones not so much.. The daughter of the vendors at the show was handling them like they were tiny kittens.

If you are interested, I will message you the name of the vendor, because right as soon as you google it you see a mish-mash of opinions on them. I normally check out my vendors first, but I figured this was a relatively small purchase compared to some of the critters I have purchased, so I just went by how the staff and animals seemed.
 

fuzzylogix

Carpe Diem
Messages
2,115
Location
Dallas, TX
i think seamus is dead on as always. chams have been known to just drop dead from stress very easily. im very sorry for your loss though, it seems like you already had an attachment to the litte guy. i'm sure that this vendor will do what is right though. make sure you take some pictures to provide proof if the seller requests them, and keep us updated.
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
i think seamus is dead on as always. chams have been known to just drop dead from stress very easily. im very sorry for your loss though, it seems like you already had an attachment to the litte guy. i'm sure that this vendor will do what is right though. make sure you take some pictures to provide proof if the seller requests them, and keep us updated.

Thanks. I took pictures as soon as I got him with the receipt, business card, the poor little guy and I opened my phone to sit next to it with the date & time on the screen. I've put off buying a chameleon for a while because I was concerned they are fragile, but the people really seemed assured he would be totally fine and they had one that lived for "years and years" and they seemed legit, so that's why I was like okay, I'm getting one! I just hope they can be kind enough to help me replace him. I'm fine with meeting them somewhere, whether it just be somewhere in the area or if I can just get an I.O.U. and pick maybe an older/larger one up from the next reptile show in the area and just transport him back immediately and have the cage ready in advance.

On their website they ship them to my area :main_huh: so how would that compare to me just having my mom hold him on her lap for a relatively quick car ride home.
 

fuzzylogix

Carpe Diem
Messages
2,115
Location
Dallas, TX
i've had veileds before and had no issues personally, and i purchased them as hatchlings. the only sure way to know exactly what happened would be a necropsy to be honest. the way you described him acting in the cup though sounds like stress related to me, but again, im no expert in chams. either way it sucks and i hope you guys can come to an agreement on resolving this.
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
I was at the same show yesterday, I know exactly who you bought from b/c I was looking at them too. They are probably still cleaning up from the show, I'm sure they'll make it right. Don't throw out the body,put it in the frige incase they want pix.
I'm so sorry, you had to go from excitement to disappointment :( I feel bad for you, I hope everything works out. Maybe they'll replace him, but you'll have to pay shipping?

I skipped over this post before- opps!

Okay, so you saw the ones in the little bins on the table? they had jackson's in a screen cage and a few different ones in bins on the table. I put the little guy in the freezer. I got the little veiled guy from the bin on the table. The people that also had a few snakes in displays and some frogs and whatnot.

I just really hope they are able to help me out here. I'm not out for blood or something, but I really took the time to talk to them, buy all the proper stuff from the next booth over and made sure to ask them specific questions and they assured me he'd be fine for the ride home... It's not really their fault but at the pet store I work at, something like that we'd offer a 100% replacement with a receipt no questions asked.. I hope they are able to help me out too.
 

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
I put the little guy in the freezer.

That might be a problem.

If anyone involved were to want a necropsy done, freezing the animal makes the analysis less useful. Freezing causes cellular damage, cells all over the body will rupture and this can obscure other sources of damage or physical issues.
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
That might be a problem.

If anyone involved were to want a necropsy done, freezing the animal makes the analysis less useful. Freezing causes cellular damage, cells all over the body will rupture and this can obscure other sources of damage or physical issues.

Is the fridge better? The vendors website said frozen and that's what my friends said to do. I was hoping to have heard back from them already.. the show ended an hour ago...
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
Happy to report the owner responded to my email, and has agreed to replace him. Hopefully this won't fall through and I will meet up with him sometime soon for a swap. Thanks for all your help!
 

tlbowling

Geck~OCD
Messages
1,758
Location
NJ
I skipped over this post before- opps!

Okay, so you saw the ones in the little bins on the table? they had jackson's in a screen cage and a few different ones in bins on the table. I put the little guy in the freezer. I got the little veiled guy from the bin on the table. The people that also had a few snakes in displays and some frogs and whatnot.

I just really hope they are able to help me out here.

Yep...same show:) same people. I'm glad they are going to replace him for you:) They had enough of them :p
 

kathryn

New Member
Messages
33
Location
New Jersey
I'm curious.... Did the continer have air holes?

Yes, several large drilled air holes in the side of the container.

I joined the chameleon forum and am getting great advice from there as well, and hope to be able to do a swap for a new one sometime this week.
 

fuzzylogix

Carpe Diem
Messages
2,115
Location
Dallas, TX
sorry this had to happen to you, but very glad that they are going to make it right. would love to see pics of your new baby when you get it.
 

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