gravid garge problems...

mrbradmeister

New Member
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26
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canada
Help! Hi im new to this site, and this is my first post. im a fairly new reptile owner. I have a gravid female she has been gravid for nearly 2 months now. Is she egg bound?
i have a lay box in there with sphagnum moss and peat moss. i use exo terra jungle earth as substrate. The temp is a constant 80 on the warm side and 74 on the cool.

i have both the male and female in together, they are kept in a 40 long, 36 wide, 40 high tank. which i got told is pretty big for them but oh well. should i split the pair up? I've watched them at night and some nights the male will go at her and nip her back or where ever he is and she growls and bites him and he leaves. But returns and does the same an hour or so later. I got told that's normal and not to worry and that it doesn't mean i should split them up. but is this what could be stopping her laying??
 
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Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
Welcome! I would lower the max temp just a little bit to make her a little more comfortable. Some females have a set laying schedule & others do not. I have 1 female that laid 10 eggs her 1st year, only 1 last year and 6 eggs this year sofar; so it's hit-or-miss sometimes.

As long as she is active, eating & pooping then she is not egg bound. My girls usually stop eating 1-2 days before they start digging; but if your girl stops eating for several days & becomes very lethargic then it's time to see a vet because she could possibly be egg bound.

You can gently feel her sides just above her pelvis/hip area, if she is gravid with eggs & close to laying then you should be able to feel the eggs. I've been breeding gargs for 3 years, so if you have questions just ask or send me a PM.
 

acpart

Geck-cessories
Staff member
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14,114
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Somerville, MA
I'm just beginning as a garg breeder but I have to say that I can't tell whether or not my garg is gravid (unlike my leos where I can see the eggs in them) except for monitoring her weight: when it starts to go up 3-4 grams suddenly she's gravid and when she's lost 4-5 grams it's time to dig up the tank.

Aliza
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
Messages
26
Location
canada
Thank you for the replies!!

Hannibal, i lowered the temp on the warm side down to 76F will that be OK? As for her being active, yes she is still pretty active but I have not seen her eat in a while. She has kept a constant weight of 37g.

Things are starting to look good, i was reading online about pre-lay sheds? could not get definite answer on if it is true or not? but she shed last sat. Plus i work away through the week some weeks (my girlfriend mists and does all the daily duties for me!) i got home yesterday and she was showing a lot of interest in the lay box for the first time! i watched her a bit later on at night, she was digging like a backo! lol

What about housing them together? should i split them up?? Id feel bad because one has big enclosure and the other would be in 20 gal turned vertically! lol But i suppose id feel worse if something bad happened to any of them!! They do seem pretty compatible.

I have a question about the male as well. His feet do not seem no where near as sticky as hers! he gets fed the same, supplemented the same. I cant figure it out and cannot find any info online!! Is this a sign of illness or just bad genetics?? im pretty sure he used to be stickier before he met her!! But could be wrong!!

Again, thank you for the replies
 
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mrbradmeister

New Member
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26
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canada
Another thing, I can almost see the shape of her eggs in her side When she moves certain ways, is this normal?? or maybe im just seeing things....
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
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26
Location
canada
so i tried the "gecko sauna" for the male. It made a bit of a difference, gonna try again on Sunday as i don't want to stress him too much. Is there any way to check calcium levels for gargs like you can for cresties?? As i also read it could be due to a calcium defiancy? I dont see how though as he eats CGD every other night and dusted crickets 3 times a month. I picked up some phoenix worms, but they dont seem to take them even if i pop it and juice there nose. lol. Maybe ill try one covered in CGD lol
 

Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
Sorry for the late reply, I had a devastating loss this week when my male Sikorae fell & died a couple hours later before my vet opened....I'm still crushed at his sudden loss.

Glad your girl is digging :) When they are close to laying, you can definitely see & feel the egg poking out their sides. It is up to you on keeping them together or not. Most do seperate their gargoyles as the females can be very aggressive, but some have has success with certain pairings that do seem to get along quite well. Your set-up is a pretty good size, so I think you'd be ok keeping them together, but just watch for any signs of aggression.

There is no real way to test gargoyle's calcium levels without a vet doing blood work. As for inability to stick, welcome to the world of gargoyles! Most do not stick once they make the transition from sub-adult to adulthood. The sheer bulk of an adult gargoyle will pull them off any slick surfaces; gargoyle toe pads are not the same as cresties & will not stick like cresties do. Once my gargoyles have reached 45-50g, they can no longer stick & slide/fall off...because of this, gargoyles need more branches & vines than cresties do.

As long as you are feeding CGD or DGD then you shouldn't need any addition calcium added to their diet; however, I do offer a small dish for my breeding females in case they would like to lick some up....sadly, only 1 of my females does & the rest ignore it.
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
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26
Location
canada
aww :( so sorry to hear that bud! i send you my love!! and hope good things come your way in the near future!!

ye she was digging like crazy tho last night, couldn't even hardly see her just her tail sticking out. Then she filled it all in and kind of packed it down, but still no eggs when i checked this morning. To be honest shes not aggressive to him at all, its usually him that starts been a horny lil guy. She just nips him and he leaves.

thanks for the info on the sticking i was worrying that he had something wrong with him. But that explains it. He just shed two nights ago as well, so it could have been that he as near shed as well couldn't it? as for the vines i pimped out their enclosure pretty good lol there is plenty to climb on in there for them!! i was looking into putting real plants in there as well for them to make it as naturalistic as possible. maybe a Ficus tree and a few diff ferns??

Ye i have a bowl of fluckers calcium and D in there. none of the pair touch it though. They just eat there CGD.

what do you use to incubate the eggs in?? vermiculite? how wet should it be? Do i have to mist the eggs daily like i do them?? should i have hydrometer in the container with them??

Thanks again Hannibal! sorry for your loss though.
 

Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
I use snake plants & pothos quite a bit in my enclosures. The snake plants can hold up quite well to gargs sleeping on them. If he immediately stops when she tells him to, then they should be fine together.

I use superhatch to incubate my eggs, but several people I know us the vermiculite. I rinse the incubation medium really well to get loose dust off it, then i make sure it is damp, but not drenched....put about 1-1.5" in a tupperware container with 2-3 air holes for ventilation. No misting required of the eggs :)

I have a temp guy that I use to make sure the incubating container is within the temp range I want (between 76-78 then expect around 75-82 day incubation, cooler the temp the longer the incubation). I leave the incubation container in the gecko room next to the enclosures & no fancy heating/cooling fridge required for these guys.

I'll check the humidity of the container once a month to make sure it is not drying out, if it is I'll mist in a corner away from the eggs & cover 1 of the air holes.....but usually I only have to do this maybe once during my incubation season (Feb-Nov....I have 5 breeding girls that I started breeding at different times to stagger the hatchlings).

I did get 2 new fertile eggs last night, and I have 1 baby hatch out Friday morning, then 2 more babies today....I'll post photos in about 1-2 hrs, need to go run errands & pick up more decor for my growing gecko clan.
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
Messages
26
Location
canada
so i woke up this morning checked the laybox!! N BOOM 2 egss!! pretty pumped and excited!! lol

one looks misshaped though on the top?? kinda looks dented?? the other one is longer and thinner and they was both kinda stuck together? doesn't sound normal from what ive read?? or is it?? is it hard to hatch Grags i had someone telling me they really struggled at first!!
 

Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
Congrats! The dents should pop out within a few hours up to a week, so no worries there. Here is a photo that illistrates different egg sizes, the ones on the bottom row were the oldest (several have hatched since the photo was taken). But some eggs are skinnier or longer than others; then as they incubate some get even more plump. The one with the 3/11 date is a snowflake egg...aka, under calcified & has a pattern that looks like snowflakes all over the egg. It is due to hatch this coming weekend, so never throw an egg out unless it becomes molded over.

photo-50.jpg


Have you candled the eggs yet to check for the embryo to verify they are fertile?
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
Messages
26
Location
canada
aww just candled the eggs! and they are yellow, infertile!! dissapointing....gonna incubate them any way. what does that mean that the eggs are infertile??? does that happen a lot?

i walked passed last night and caught them in the act of doing it. Can female Gargs not retain sperm like cresties can either?? or do they have to mate after every clutch!?

whoaa! that's a lot of healthy looking eggs congrats!!

would you recommend ordering some super hatch, is it worth it?? or just go with vermiculite for now??
 

Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
The vermiculite should work fine; I personally like the superhatch since it changes from a shiney to a dull pastel look when the moisture level gets to low. I incubate my I fertiles until the mold over, you just never know if someone is a late bloomer & takes longer for the embryo to start developing.

Infertile eggs do happen, a few of my girls have been giving me 1 fertile & 1 infertile in each clutch this year. Gargs do retain sperm like cresties, some girls do seem to regulate the amount of sperm going to each egg or something....not sure what they are doing, other than frustrating us....hehe

Most geckos housed in pairs or trios do breed again with 24-48 hrs after laying.
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
Messages
26
Location
canada
i have them in the vermiculite!! Has the late blooming ever happened to you??

how often do you change the laybox material out?? after every lay?? I was unsure, so i changed it any way!! when should i put it back in the tank?? or just leave it in all together?

Again, thank you for all this info and help i cant thank you enough!!!
 

Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
I've had 1 late bloomer, really glad I held onto it also :)

I don't use layboxes; my girls didn't like them & would lay in their substrate, so I made sure all my sub-adult & adult girls have 2.5-3" of eco earth substrate mixed with sphagnum moss covering their entire enclosure bottom. I fluff their substrate about 1 week prior to their lay date to make rue it's nice & moist/humid for them. Everyone I know that uses a laybox leaves it in for them.

I use a pencil, ball point pen, or fountain-tip pen to write a code on the egg, then I track all the egg stats in my computer.
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
Messages
26
Location
canada
well just got back from work and the eggs are starting to mold!
i put bowl of calcium in there enclosure, looks like she has been eating it too!!

should i be treating for worms and such even if there are no symptoms? how often do you de-worm etc?? also what should i use if i do?? i was reading about e-fix?? i aslo read it can cause infertility in the males if the dose is too high, is this true??
 

Hannibal

Gray Sky Exotics
Messages
616
Location
Indiana
If there has been no diagnosis by a vet, then I would not treat for it. If there is a diagnosis then only treat according to the vet's specific instructions.

If the eggs are molding over this early in incubation, then they were most likely infertile.
 

mrbradmeister

New Member
Messages
26
Location
canada
the reason why i ask this, is my male (mario) has become really sluggish and lost about 1.5G he is also not eating no where near as much, just not been himself. he was out and about all day today licking water from the leaves and his drinking bowl never really see him out in the day. im worried about him, he doesn't even really try escape when i pick him up and then when he's in my hand he just flops pretty much doesn't put no effort into anything! ive been trying to find a vet in Saskatchewan that specializes in reptiles but cannot find one. any ideas what it could be until i find a vet? or how i can help him? i think his eyes might be sunken as well but im not sure!!
 

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