Urgent: One leo is getting extremely skinnny

Anything is better than instant-death (smashing head, shooting it, etc.). The animal should realize first that it is dying so it can make an easy transition. If anything, let him pass on his own. Freezing him is said to cause pain. Even starving to death seems better than freezing to death. It might take longer than freezing, but whatever sounds more comfortable. It's up to you; that's just what I think.

I really think letting him go himself or perhaps selling a couple items to get that money is the best way to go. Being cold and alone would be an awful way to go, honestly. I know it seems hard when everyone is telling you to go to a vet, but they do euthanasia by injection after sedation, even on reptiles. It really is the most humane way, I'm sorry This is all really awful and I'm sorry you even have to contemplate this at all. "euthanasia of reptiles" It is up to you in the end what you want to do and what you feel is best for Echo, however, I'm just giving my advice.

Just a quick Echo update. He ate! I force fed him 4 mealworms and, although it took over 30 minutes because he kept spitting them out, I got him to eat 4 whole mealworms. I actually was able to take time to learn what makes him open his mouth. He won't open his mouth unless I stroke on him bottom jaw from the middle point in between the eye and the nose and then stroke down to the chin on both sides. I'm really happy that I got him to eat! Maybe he'll start improving if I feed him 4-6 mealworms a day. It will also give me time to get my orders in, such as the Oxbow that's supposed to be here Thursday.

I got the fecal test kit today, but I'm unsure if I should use it. If he has parasites, how am I supposed to dose him? The Panacur that came with the kit has a 1 cc oral syringe, but I'm unsure on how to dose such a small and skinny animal. Even if he did weigh 5g (which he probably doesn't) then it would still be a .000025mL dose that I would need to give him. How am I supposed to dose that small?

Viper is still improving by leaps and bounds. The phoenix worms keep escaping the dish somehow (it's a small ceramic dish that even rickets can't climb, so I have no idea how they're getting out) and I see them zooming around the tank. Since they go missing after a while, I know that Viper ate them. I had her out today and she was being so lovable.



Viper
Viper

Wow! It seems like everytime we get bad news, we get good news right after! I hope echo can improve, what bothers me is that he isn't eating. If he was eating and still losing weight it'll make sense, but since he isn't eating then I don't understand how it could be parasites.
Viper is looking better! Her tail seems to have gotten a little wider, if I remember correctly.
Also, my leo is freaked out by my laptop ever since I watched a video of another leo.[emoji14]

did you try making a bug slurry? I cant remember.
All I do is chuck a mix of bugs in a blender and wiz them up with a tiny splash of water and some calcium and vits. might be easier to drip feed him with the slurry then trying to force feed whole live worms.

sausage said:

did you try making a bug slurry? I cant remember.
All I do is chuck a mix of bugs in a blender and wiz them up with a tiny splash of water and some calcium and vits. might be easier to drip feed him with the slurry then trying to force feed whole live worms.

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I don't have a blender to use. I tried chopping them up and squeezing out the guts, but he doesn't like the slurry. At least with the mealworms, he may spit them out but at least he eats them after I try to feed him several times.

Should I still try to give him the Oxbow Carnivore Care or should I just stick with the mealworms?

As for Matt, thanks! I am sorry, but that's so funny about the laptop. xD I don't think Echo has parasites either because Viper isn't getting sick or anything. And yes, she's getting a wider tail! I'm so happy that she's improving.

I don't want to be a downer here, but I think this is worth saying. Even though you managed to force feed him, you should keep in in your thoughts that he may need to be put down if he is suffering too much. It's hard for people(myself included) to give up on an animal and end its pain, but sometimes it needs to be done. I'm not saying it does, that will have to be a decision you make by yourself.

I recently had one put down due to gout. Sometimes it seemed like she was getting better, and sometimes it seemed like she was getting worse. In the end I made the judgement that she was suffering and wasn't going to get better, and I think I made the right choice.

Don't force an animal to survive if it's in too much pain. Again, that will have to be a decision you have to make on your own. That most recent picture you posted of him was painful just to look at. I can only imagine he's suffering. I really do hope he gets better for you, but don't take it too far. Do what's best for the animal.

I'm not the type of person to give up onto an animal. I don't know what to do about Echo. He's still fighting, so I want to give him a chance, still.

I got the gram scale, heat pad, dimmer, and Oxbow today! My fiancé is currently rearranging the tank for the UTH placement. I weighed all of my geckos.

Echo - 4.65g
Viper - 6.34g
Rhyloh (my crestie) - 10.53g

Is rhyloh a baby?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel the need to say this, because I hate to see any animal suffer: freezing is NEVER a humane way to euthanize a pet. Not even fish. Nerves, blood & tissue freeze SLOWLY - all while the animal is still conscious & very much alert. In cold-blooded animals, ice crystals form inside their bodies, which I'm sure you can imagine is extremely painful. I want to spread the word about this, because I keep hearing that people are doing this, and it truly breaks my heart. If you love your animal, scrape up a little bit of money & let a professional veterinarian do the euthanizing.

Again, not being rude at all, just trying to shed some light on this form of "euthanasia"...

Matt_pole said:

Is rhyloh a baby?

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Sorry I never saw this, yes, Rhyloh is a baby. Rhyloh is about 4 months old now.

RUBYsoho said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel the need to say this, because I hate to see any animal suffer: freezing is NEVER a humane way to euthanize a pet. Not even fish. Nerves, blood & tissue freeze SLOWLY - all while the animal is still conscious & very much alert. In cold-blooded animals, ice crystals form inside their bodies, which I'm sure you can imagine is extremely painful. I want to spread the word about this, because I keep hearing that people are doing this, and it truly breaks my heart. If you love your animal, scrape up a little bit of money & let a professional veterinarian do the euthanizing.

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RUBYsoho said:

Again, not being rude at all, just trying to shed some light on this form of "euthanasia"...

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There's no other way for me to euthanize my fish. I don't feel comfortable smashing them with anything or decapitating them, because their brain can still live for two hours after this happens. What else can I do to euthanize them? You can't take fish to the vet. Also, seeing as how my vet wants an arm and a leg to euthanize a small lizard, plus I have to drive over an hour to get it done, it's not gonna happen. All ways of euthanasia are painful, if you ask me. So, don't take this the wrong way, but I'll euthanize my animals in whatever means I find necessary. If I'm short on money, I'll freeze them. If I have an opportunity to take them to the vet to get euthanized then I'll do that.

I'm not being rude, I'm just stating that I'm doing the best for my animals and I don't have the options that everyone else does. I don't want this to be a situation where, "Oh, well, if you don't have the money to take your animal to the vet then you shouldn't have them at all." Crap happens. Other animals become my top priority. I'm sorry, but I would rather take my dog who I've had for 6 years to the vet to get a possibly cancerous tumor removed rather than take a lizard that I've had for a month to get a fecal and get charged over $60 for it. In this situation, I picked my dog over my leo. If I'm a terrible person for doing so, then have at me.


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In other news, Echo is still holding on. I can't bring myself to euthanize him. I've been giving him water via oral syringe and he ate several waxworms today. I'll see how he does. Viper is doing amazingly well. She's stalking down crickets, phoenix worms, and mealworms. Now I'm giving her a few waxworms and seeing if those (in small amounts) will help her gain weight. She's becoming more active and, although her tail is staying the same, she is definitely doing good.

I purposely prefaced my post with "don't take this the wrong way," so it would not be accidentally misinterpreted as being rude. Secondly, yes, if you can't afford pets, maybe you shouldn't get them. Comparing the worth of a lizard vs. a dog is ridiculous - both animals should have equal worth. The point I am trying to make is that freezing is inhumane. You say fish living for 2 hours after having their heads cut off is unsettling to you, but having them freeze for hours in a freezer isn't? I was kindly letting you know that this is extremely painful for an animal, because from one animal lover to another, I figured it would maybe make you consider alternatives. It wasn't intended as an attack - simply a sharing of information.

I do hope your leo isn't suffering. I'm sure you are doing the best you can to keep him comfortable, which I find admirable. I also hope you will reconsider the freezing method & possibly find a quicker, less painful way of putting him down. Perhaps explaining to a vet that you don't have any money will result in an act of kindness where the vet may do it for free. I've seen this happen many times, so you never know. Best of luck, and do keep us posted.

And again, I apologize if my post sounded rude. That was not its intention.

There are breeders like Marcia from Golden Gate Geckos who use the fridge to freezer method (or have in the past). Reptiles go into a cold coma after being at fridge temps for about 4-6 hours. They basically go to sleep (this can happen if shipping in super cold temps, too). After that, they get moved to the freezer.

There will always be arguments on things like this that can get ugly. Just because there are different opinions, we don't need to get nasty or make others feel bad. However, straight to freezer is not good at all.

Poi said:

Anything is better than instant-death (smashing head, shooting it, etc.). The animal should realize first that it is dying so it can make an easy transition. If anything, let him pass on his own. Freezing him is said to cause pain. Even starving to death seems better than freezing to death. It might take longer than freezing, but whatever sounds more comfortable. It's up to you; that's just what I think.

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I completely agree. Starving to death would definitely be better (not that it's without its flaws), because it gives the body a chance to shut down naturally, as opposed to being forced to shut down via hypothermia/freezing blood, tissues & organs. I think not enough people are aware of how inhumane the freezing method is, which is exactly why I posted.

Kristi23 said:

There are breeders like Marcia from Golden Gate Geckos who use the fridge to freezer method (or have in the past). Reptiles go into a cold coma after being at fridge temps for about 4-6 hours. They basically go to sleep (this can happen if shipping in super cold temps, too). After that, they get moved to the freezer.

There will always be arguments on things like this that can get ugly. Just because there are different opinions, we don't need to get nasty or make others feel bad. However, straight to freezer is not good at all.

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My intention was never to make anyone feel bad. As an animal lover, I believe sharing information with other animal lovers is important. I also obviously don't want to see any animal suffering or in pain of any kind.

I want to commend people for doing a fairly good job so far of keeping this a civilized discussion. I would also love it if anyone could post some info about various methods of euthanasia which is backed up by actual research as opposed to information that floats around the web since this would be helpful to the discussion.

Aliza

acpart said:

I want to commend people for doing a fairly good job so far of keeping this a civilized discussion. I would also love it if anyone could post some info about various methods of euthanasia which is backed up by actual research as opposed to information that floats around the web since this would be helpful to the discussion.

Aliza

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I agree, Aliza! Some legit info would definitely be great. I'll do some research & get back to the thread. It's unfortunate that everyone does turn to the internet for answers these days, especially since the internet is rarely reliable.

:main_thumbsdown:

First of all, these are all my opinions backed up by research. I'm not trying to say I know for sure what the best method is, but I found some good papers that anyone can read and interpret and I am posting my interpretation. I did a lot of research into this when I was considering euthanasia for my leopard gecko with severe gout, and this is what I found. I don't want to offend anyone or anything. Aliza said some scientific info would be good, so here's what I found. I know it's a sensitive subject, so I'm just clearing that up.

All of this is if lethal injection is not an option. Rendering unconscious followed by lethal injection will probably always be the best way.

Based on laboratory procedures when dealing with reptiles, I would say that the most humane way to do it is rendering the reptiles unconscious and then destroying the brain. Unfortunately most of us don't have access to anesthetics such as ketamine(most commonly used). I don't know if anyone is sure if putting a reptile in the fridge for a long time actually renders it unconscious or if it just slows them down so much that they stop moving. Maybe someone can find a paper on that.

https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf
From section S7.3:

It won't let me copy any text, so I'll just summarize. Freezing reptiles and amphibians is considered inhumane. The only time this is appropriate is when it is very small(less than 4 grams) and submerged in liquid nitrogen.

Gas chambers are sometimes acceptable, but often need to be followed with an injection or other way of confirming that the animal is dead.

It seems that the most discussed method is destruction of the brain by various methods. That seems to be the accepted method.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229022/0193.pdf

In this paper, it says that reptiles up to 1 kg should be rendered unconscious and then the brain should be destroyed.

In my opinion, the right way to euthanize a reptile is not based on the owner's squeamishness. It's based on what it best for the animal. It seems to me that, although brutal and stomach-roiling, destroying the brain with physical force is the most painless and sure-fire way.

Neon Aurora said:

https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf

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I actually came across the same article. Thanks for sharing this! I think it's important to spread this information, so that pet owners can be more aware & do the very best for their pets.

I found this article from Berkeley College:
http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/guidelines/euthanasia.pdf
It also says freezing is painful & inhumane.

Not that this reflects on any of anyone else's views, but personally, I couldn't bring myself to physically put any animal down with my own hands - that being said, for me, a veterinarian or professional are my only options. I'm super broke, but I will always find a way to get some money to put my pets down, if necessary. Now, that isn't to say at-home euthanasia is NEVER an option; these are just my personal feelings on the matter. I understand different people deal with situations differently. I do hope that this thread sheds some light on euthanasia, so our leos no longer have to suffer.

Thanks again for posting those 2 great articles!

I agree that it's very hard to kill an animal with your own hands. I didn't think I could do it, no matter what. I'm going to share a story that explains why I feel the way I do about this subject. Hopefully it doesn't upset anybody. I believe I did the right thing.

There was one day where my boyfriend accidentally injured a wild garter snake with his car. He didn't really give me details on how it happened, but the snakes spine was broken and it couldn't move the lower half of its body. It tried to slither, but it didn't have enough working muscles to drag the second half of its body. It was obviously in pain and not going to make it. I knew I couldn't just leave it there to starve and suffer. My boyfriend simply couldn't do it, so I knew it was up to me to end its suffering. So I did what needed to be done to prevent a slow and painful death for the poor snake. It felt awful and I don't want to have to do it again, but it was then I realized that sometimes you have to put your own feelings aside to help an animal that is suffering and won't survive. I always said I could never kill an animal because I love them so much, but my love for animals drove me to put myself aside and prevent a suffering animal from dying slowly. Nothing could have saved that snake, not even a vet.

I don't personally think their is anything wrong with home-euthanasia when it comes to reptiles as long as it's done right. Sometimes(as in Kiara's case) it isn't practical to take them to the vet. However, I don't think it's fair to freeze a reptile(which is probably very painful) just because destroying the brain is too brutal or messy.