Confused About the Patternless Stripe Gene

[Neon Aurora]

Hello, new here. First I'd like to say that I did indeed look at another thread on this forum about the patternless stripe but it didn't answer my question, nor did any of my other research.

Another thing, I've been out of the loop of breeding for some time now, as my first attempt failed due to instability in my life. I'm getting back into breeding now that my life is stable and I am older and can handle the responsibility. The point is that there are some new morphs around now that weren't around when I was first interested.

I recently acquired a (possible) mack snow het typhoon. I discussed this animal with the breeder to make sure I knew what I was getting, and he said she is 100% het for rainwater albino and for eclipse and that I can "randomly" produce the patternless stripe gene. Now, to my understanding, the patternless stripe gene is present in RAPTORs, cyclones, and RADARs and it is a polygenic trait. It is the result of breeding a stripe and reverse stripe together. Now my question; can I truly randomly produce this gene with the female I purchased? How exactly does this gene show up? Is it even known?

Of course, I did consider these doubts before I purchased her, and decided that even if this information was incorrect, she would still be a good step forward in my project so went ahead and purchased her. Now I have have her and she is ovulating so my project will commence once I stabilize the conditions in my incubator.

 

[Neon Aurora]

I'm sorry for the double post, but I couldn't seem to edit my previous one. I just wanted to mention that I got her from a reputable breeder and I don't necessarily doubt the information I was given. I regret my wording of "if this information is incorrect" because I didn't mean any offense to the original breeder, I'm just confused on how this gene works because I keep reading different things everywhere.

I believe the original breeder is a member of this forum, so if you(the breeder) see this, I did not intend to sound rude or say you have given me false information. She's a beautiful gecko and I'm very excited to have her. I'm just trying to learn all I can about this gene because I don't understand it yet.

 

[acpart]

I'm not sure anyone completely understands how the stripe gene works. It seems that the stripe gene (or genes, who knows?) can produce anything on the continuum from aberrant, jungle, stripe, reverse stripe to patternless stripe. I have found that when breeding stripe to non-stripe, I get a pretty high percentage of stripes. I also have some banded geckos that seem to produce more stripes when bred to striped geckos than other banded geckos have. One banded gecko that has this tendency actually produced a reverse stripe when paired with another banded gecko (who probably had a stripe parent!). So yes, I think it's possible, though not guaranteed.

Aliza

 

[Kristi23]

I agree with Aliza's post. I've hatched a couple banded animals from two patternless stripe animals. It's really hard to predict 100% with the stripe gene. I've also hatched a couple reverse stripes this way.

 

[Neon Aurora]

I see, so it's possible but not understood. Is this gene connected to the eclipse gene? So maybe having an animal het for eclipse gives me a link to producing a patternless stripe? Also, since the patternless stripe gene is linked to stripe and reverse stripe, do I also have a chance of producing these two genes as well?

 

[tb144050]

As far as I know (been reading non-stop for 7months), the eclipse gene is not tied or connected in any way to stripe, reverse stripe, or "patternless stripe."

As other's have said, it is almost unpredictable to see what you will get. If you are interested in my "way of thinking," which is an UNTESTED UNSTUDIED THEORY, then read below. You will need to have a very good understanding of genetics.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FACT, but some will correct anything I am slightly misunderstanding:

I say that you will need a very good understanding of genetics because my theory involves not just ONE gene...and each gene has it's own combinations when mated to the same gene from the other Leo. For example, to begin:

A dominant trait just needs one dominant gene in order to be Visible/"active". Like the Mack snow genes (which are completely unconnected to the patternless, reverse, and stripe genes)........ a parent with the gene combination "Mm" will be visibly SNOW even though there is one dominant "M" snow gene and one recessive "m" snow gene.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^^^With this basic understanding of how the dominant trait can be visible while only ONE dominant gene is present, let's move on to my actual theory:

I have always come to the conclusion, based on reading, that the "patternless stripe" is a COMBINATION of a "Stripe" and a "Reverse Stripe" being present in the same Leo. For example: draw/fill-in a square on a piece of paper.......then fill in all the paper around it...You get a "filled in square WITH a filled in EVERYTHING around it. The end result is a completely-colored piece of paper, but we know that it is truly a "filled in square" + "filled in surrounding area". So I would call it a "patternless square" piece of paper.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I am led to THINK this UNPROVEN THEORY: The "stripe" is a dominant trait, requiring just one dominant "S" gene to be visible.....and.....the "reverse stripe" is a dominant trait, also requiring just one dominant "R" gene to be visible.

So, in my theory:
1) A striped leo may have "Ss" (or might even have "SS" but only one "S" is required).
2) A reverse-striped leo may have "Rr" (or might even have "RR" but only one "R" is required).

and finally....

3) A "patternless stripe" leo may have "Ss Rr" (or may even have "SS Rr"...or... "SS RR" ....or..."Ss RR".....just as long as their is atleast one dominand "S" and one dominant "R" to cause a STRIPE and REVERSE-STRIPE to be visible. The result is a seemingly visibly "patternless" leo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^This UNPROVEN THEORY of mine would hold true for ALOT (maybe not all) situations:
1) Aliza said "stripe mated to non-stripe produced a lot of stripes":
so......."Ss" x "ss" would give a calculated average of 25% hatchlings being "Ss". Calculations/probabilities are not always accurate...just probabilities.

2)Kristi's post said she "has hatched a COUPLE of banded Leo's from mating 2 "patternless-stripes"....so the mating could be "SsRr" x "SsRr". I think there is about a 5% chance of the hatchlings being born with: "ss rr".....so without a "stripe" or a "reverse-stripe," the pattern would default back to a "normal" pattern.

Kristi also said she "hatched a couple of reverse-stripes" with the same "patternless-stripe" x "patternless-stripe" mating........so again, the mating could be "SsRr" x "SsRr." In my UNPROVEN THEORY, to hatch a reverse-stripe, the Leo would need to receive "ssRr" or "ssRR". There is probably about a 12-25% combined chance of hatchling getting ATLEAST 1 dominant "R" while only getting recessive "ss".


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again....this is ALL UNPROVEN THEORY, but it makes sense in my head. I just don't have the resources to PROVE genetics for stripe, reverse-stripe, and the combo of both: "patternless-stripe". I don't even have the DAYS it would take me actually calculate the probabilities of the different mating possibilities because, in theory, 2 different genes are at play, so I am sorry that I am ESTIMATING probabilities.

I hope no one blows my theory out of the water, because it is my only possible reasoning for the unpredictable outcomes.....and because I just spent 30 minutes thinking of how to type up my theory.

 

[Kristi23]

The first eclipse/raptors are from patternless stripe lines. The "P" in raptors is for patternless (stripe). So I think it's related. I believe the patternless stripes hatched from some type of striped animals. Not sure what type though.

 

[Kristi23]

This is from Trempers site: The A.P.T.O.R. does not carry the gene to make the banded body pattern. It hatches 90-100% patternless (see above photo) and often carries the gene for reverse stripe. Any pattern seen is in the form of small light-colored, mid-dorsal, spots, circles or faint lines, which are often overtaken by the tangerine during the first 8 months of growth.


Obviously the banded thing comes from somewhere because I've hatched a couple from patternless animals. But he does mention the reverse stripe being carried in the gene.

 

[Kristi23]

This is from leopardgeckowiki:

RAPTOR stands for Red-eye Albino Patternless Tremper ORange. A RAPTOR is a Red-Eyed Albino gecko with an orange colored body. They were created by Ron Tremper in 2004. Unlike some morphs such as Blizzards or Enigmas which are random mutations, RAPTORs are a combination morph. They are a combination of the Eclipse morph, Patternless Stripe morph, and the Tremper Albino morph.

The process in creating RAPTORs has led to the creation of many different morphs. Those morphs include: Reverse Stripes, Carrot Heads, and APTORs.

 

[tb144050]

This is from Trempers site: The A.P.T.O.R. does not carry the gene to make the banded body pattern. It hatches 90-100% patternless (see above photo) and often carries the gene for reverse stripe. Any pattern seen is in the form of small light-colored, mid-dorsal, spots, circles or faint lines, which are often overtaken by the tangerine during the first 8 months of growth.


Obviously the banded thing comes from somewhere because I've hatched a couple from patternless animals. But he does mention the reverse stripe being carried in the gene.

^^^^gives me more to think about....lol :O

I googled and found the following info.....I also *bumped* the post it was from because there is other relevant information in it..such as "stripe + reverse stripe created "patternless" stripe and also caused the creation of the "eclipse" gene??

This is a Patternless stripe

“Patternless” stripe is the result of crossing a Stripe and a Reverse Stripe together and getting a gecko that is showing both the stripe pattern and the reverse stripe pattern at the same time causing the gecko to look “patternless”.

not all of the stripe to reverse stripe crossed animals will be “patternless” stripe.

“Patternless” Stripes can have spots on their backs and will usually get them as they age. There is different degrees of how well “Patternless” Stripes look some will look totally patterless and others will have hints of pattern here and there.

I did a huge write up on eye pigment in geckos and how the pattern effects it, but the host for all the pictures went under so all the pic links were lost. I will try to get the write up redone and maybe the post could become a sticky thread.

^^source: http://geckoforums.net/f125-morphs-genetics/92933.htm

 

[Neon Aurora]

I see, interesting discussion.

tb144050: I read your theory and I think it makes sense, but I also don't think that the stripe genes could be completely dominant. Acpart said that s/he produced stripes animals from banded animals. If the gene were completely dominant, than it would be impossible for banded animals to carry the striped gene, and therefore impossible to produce striped animals from banded ones. Also, I did see that thread but felt the need to post a new one because it didn't explain whether or not you could get the patternles stripe gene from banded animals. Thanks you for posting it though. =)

Kristi: Thank you for all the info on their origins. I'm thinking it probably is linked to eclipse, so since I have the eclipse gene I may be able to produce it.

Basically what I've gathered here is that this gene is mysterious and can pop up in several different places. But I'm satisfied knowing that I possibly have a chance or producing it. I guess it all depends on my female, so we'll see how it goes this season and more to come. =)

 

[tb144050]

Acpart actually said: "striped x banded = produce more stripes than other "banded geckos x striped".

I'm not sure anyone completely understands how the stripe gene works. It seems that the stripe gene (or genes, who knows?) can produce anything on the continuum from aberrant, jungle, stripe, reverse stripe to patternless stripe. I have found that when breeding stripe to non-stripe, I get a pretty high percentage of stripes. I also have some banded geckos that seem to produce more stripes when bred to striped geckos than other banded geckos have. One banded gecko that has this tendency actually produced a reverse stripe when paired with another banded gecko (who probably had a stripe parent!). So yes, I think it's possible, though not guaranteed.

Aliza

But I am glad you made me re-read acparts post. I didn't notice that acpart said "One banded...actually produced a reverse stripe when paired with another banded." <<<This suggests that maybe the "reverse-stripe gene" might actually be recessive....(which is what "some breeders believe".....can't remember or find my source.)

So maybe I need to re-consider the theory about separate genes...: Stripe = dominant; Reverse-stripe = recessive; "Patternless stripe" = "Ss rr" (or even "SS rr").

The short answer to your question is: the outcomes are predictably unpredictable because whatever is going on, I don't think anyone has taken the time/resources to pinpoint it....or it is just beyond their ability to prove it...lol

But the Eclipse did get created by Tremper when he was working on combining these for the patternless stripe effect.

Good luck!!