Halloween Mask

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Ok so after posting an update on my FB, I was talking to someone about HM and their history. This also sparked a few PM and E-Mails about them as well. So what I want to know from those of you who have them...what about a HM differentiates them from some of the other Bold morphs out there. For those of you who don't know me, I certainly am aware of all the history and have been producing Bold animals for years. I just want to see how tainted the market has become on the perception of what a HM is and why they have a price tag higher compared to other morphs which (in some cases) have better "HM" look to them. Do most consumers really know what is going on behind the genetics of their animals? Are we so caught up on phenotype and breeders words that we forget to challenge and ask for proof of lineage? Who knows.

Here is a question;
How would you grade these HM? (pictures used with permission)

This is not a debate or bash on anyone who works with HM and Bandits...I am simply looking to see how the general population perceives morphs and how much of a role a morph name means in comparison to phenotype and genotype.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Don't be shy or afraid...I see people are looking but no one wants to take a shot at their quality? I am not here to badger or insult anyone. It won't hurt to try...if anything we all may learn something from this.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I'll wait to post my thoughts.

 

[Halley]

All of the Halloween masks that I have ever seen look like normals to me. I have a few animals who have head patterns similar to a Halloween mask that I would sell for $30-40. I simply don’t understand why anybody would pay the $300-400 that most people charge for a Halloween mask.

I personally see nothing special about the animals posted above… Regardless of the name a breeder puts on them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I'll throw a wrench in the works here. First of all, I do not work with HM's, and in all honesty cannot tell the difference between a 'pure' Halloween Mask (if they exist) and literally hundreds of Golden Gate Bold morphs I've produced over the years. This isn't to say that I doubt the HM authenticity and appreciate their amazing head patterns... or the work and dedication to the breeders who do work with them. It doesn't mean many of the 'HM-like' head patterns I have produced are actually HM's, either.

To me, it's kind of like the Emerines. Anyone who was producing tangerine geckos years ago has produced them and they wouldn't sell because they had too much green on them. Now, with putting a different spin on marketing the name, they are in many people's collections.

I have to ask myself "why" Albey worked on the Halloweens for years, then Paul Allen took the project and gave it up? Was it too frustrating, or inconsistent? Or were buyers not interested in them at the time? Now, breeders have them in their collections and there is a breeder who claims their line of Halloween Masks are the ONLY pure line. How can anyone claim a line is 'theirs' when there is so much documented genealogy of the breeders and work done with them?

Sorry, but I am not convinced that the Halloween Mask (or the Emerine) is a true morph in and of itself as much as it is a distinctive head pattern that seems to pop up or become emphasized particularly in bold patterns. Please don't hate me for being an opinionated Mean Old Gecko Lady.

 

[pmkent1]

I'll throw a wrench in the works here. First of all, I do not work with HM's, and in all honesty cannot tell the difference between a 'pure' Halloween Mask (if they exist) and literally hundreds of Golden Gate Bold morphs I've produced over the years. This isn't to say that I doubt the HM authenticity and appreciate their amazing head patterns... or the work and dedication to the breeders who do work with them. It doesn't mean many of the 'HM-like' head patterns I have produced are actually HM's, either.

To me, it's kind of like the Emerines. Anyone who was producing tangerine geckos years ago has produced them and they wouldn't sell because they had too much green on them. Now, with putting a different spin on marketing the name, they are in many people's collections.

I have to ask myself "why" Albey worked on the Halloweens for years, then Paul Allen took the project and gave it up? Was it too frustrating, or inconsistent? Or were buyers not interested in them at the time? Now, breeders have them in their collections and there is a breeder who claims their line of Halloween Masks are the ONLY pure line. How can anyone claim a line is 'theirs' when there is so much documented genealogy of the breeders and work done with them?

Sorry, but I am not convinced that the Halloween Mask (or the Emerine) is a true morph in and of itself as much as it is a distinctive head pattern that seems to pop up or become emphasized particularly in bold patterns. Please don't hate me for being an opinionated Mean Old Gecko Lady.

Well said:main_thumbsup:

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

I agree with your opinion Marcia. How many breeders can tell you when and where the first HM were hatched? What was the original pairing that produced them? Anyone have pictures of the two founding animals that produced the HM? I have not personally seen them but I would be willing to bet a pretty penny one if not both were either Bold Stripes or direct decedents of one. Once again I am not knocking anyone who has them or has invested in the project...but I guarantee if I were to keep my best head pattern Bold Stripes and breed them back together I would easily be able to duplicate the effect.

Lastly, what is the mode of inheritance? This is a true question I have about the project. Is it similar to Bold Stripes where Bold acts polygenetic and Stripes act "recessive"?

By the way none of those heads I posted are HM. Just bold stripe and cross animals.

 

[Laska]

I work mainly with the Afghan Halloween Bolds, Bandits and HM's. I see the difference as clear as day- NOW some have gone off and mixed a pure HM with a say Bold Bandit- and thought the head pattern was close enough to a HM to call it just that. Now I find that wrong and as a responsible breeder ALL genetics-morphs crossed etc should be fullly descibed. As for one so called "Only pure line" breeder I have the skinny on this and they went thru the grape vine to get them, bought them from the guy who bought them from Paul Allen. NOT THEIR OWN-theres others out there who had these pairings and were selling them before this one breeder...- Credit needs to be given for hard work and dedication to those who deserve it-regardless of any morphs.

Anyways to me want represents the price tag of 250-400 roughly is the genetics(poly genetics) and proof of what was bred to get them. I believe there all poly genetic and once you cross them to a bold or likewise its no longer a HM. My pic below of a HM Bandit Bold is one of the closest things to a HM BUT IS NOT A HM. Its sad people have to pass on the HM name with non HM's to make a buck, but it happens and it takes alot of credit away from the breeders who have taken alot of time to keep them pure. As for the Afghan Halloween Bold which are cleary described in their title also are also very unique and obviously closely tied and if you didnt get them from one of 2 guys or have proof of the genetics stemming from them than your not dealing with the right stuff. I think buyers ARE misinformed to a degree and the only way is paperwork and phone calls. I have no problems saying where I get my leo's from and either do my sellers. If someone has something to hide-even a phone number to verify- it puts a redlight up in my book.

As for pictures, Just because I like all leos Id like to see the pics that really resemble the HM. Im curious just how close they are....

Heres some HM's hatclings and AHB's
HM Female-Round line going around head-continueing thru the eye, connecting stripes thru the round head line going towards the center of the snout.

HM Male- Still round line around head- connecting thru the eye or mostly- stripes coming from round head line thru center of snout.

NOW A HM Bandit-BOLD- Notice the inconsistent spotting and abnormal stripes on the head. This is close but not and symmetrical as a HM.

AHB'S- Serisouly cannot be confused-seriously crazy head patterns with LOTS of connecting stripes on the head little to no "spotting" is a high end leo.

AHB and HM are Head patterned leo's. The HM's I got from Chris who gave me 3 lines of genetics- the AHB from Eric who gave me 6 years of genetics and what they stemmed from... Both lines carry a history with Paul Allen...

The pics from Travis- IMO only not a HM or Even close. BUT its a beautiful Bold looking leo!!!! How much!? Duplication thru line breeding would take many many years... Im going to try and make some phone calls and see what I can come up with on the founders- think its an awesome thing we would all love to see!

My post is info and my views on the differences like said above its not to bash but to give my knowledge on the subject which is a big part of my collection.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Very interesting responses so far. I'll leave it at that.

I didn't think this was supposed to be a "Bash the Mask" or a "it isn't a morph" thread, but apparently that's what people are turning it into. Don't worry Marcia, I know your a mean old gecko lady and I won't hold anything against you! Your awesome! I also agree with you about Emerines. I don't get that morph at all, but it does exist, even though there's no green in the ones I see being labeled as Emerines. But that's a whole different conversation. I don't want or feel the the need to argue today, so I'll just respond to the question that was asked of "How would you grade these HM?" After that I will post pictures of my Halloween Masks that have been crossed with NOTHING at all. No Afghan, no bold stripe, no nothing.

I wouldn't classify those two head patterns anywhere close to a true HM, so they aren't worth grading really. They don't have patterns or attributes anywhere near what mine have and don't look anything like them at all. They both look like normal Tangerine heads to me. I think too many crosses are out there and the HM head pattern trait loses it's pattern because the HM is a line breed morph. Just like anything, if your not breeding them to excellent examples, you will lose some of the line breed trait. The term is used too loose for sure. In saying all of that, Halloween Masks can vary quite a bit….I've hatched out a lot of them this year and every single one has it's own unique color, pattern and head markings, but they all have the very bold, connected head pattern. Some are striped, some are jungle…they vary a lot.

Here is my adult male HM. Direct bloodline from Paul Allen.

Here is my adult Female, again, directly from Paul Allen's bloodline.

Here is a baby they produced when breed together. Notice the classic HM head pattern starting to form. This girl is only around 20 grams and the head will develop more and more with every she until fully grown.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

John, first off I love that you don't take this thread personally or the wrong way. Exactly how this thread was intended to be. You provided great information for those who may not realize that unless it came from Paul or Albey lines, it is not going to be true HM...which did originate from Ron Tremper. You have very nice examples of what this is SUPPOSED to look like. As stated in my first post...I wanted to see why so many people get away with labeling their HM as being such. You can browse through ads and websites all day and see animals labeled as HM which are clearly biproduct of another Bold project...typically Bold Stripes. Personally how I feel the market has gone is that anything without a stripe clean enough to be a Bold Stripe...they get sold as HM in order to keep maximum dollar going. This destroys both markets but seems to be the norm.

With the 3 "designer" projects coming from Ron I personally doubt of any "purity" in any of them (Bold Stripes, Bandits, and HM). I personally think they have all at some point been mingled at some point...be it directly or though lineage. This is not just an attack on HM, as I can say the same thing about Bold Stripes...I was simply curious as to why and how people selling or buying them determine what a HM is and why (when genetics are not 100%) are they being sold as such.

Once again John I appreciate your informative response without taking a thread the wrong way. Those are all nice bold HM as well. Anyone can feel free to question anything I work with if they would like .

ps. I will browse through pictures I have on my computer and see if I have any on here...if not I will wait until the wife comes back with my external.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Thanks for the pictures Chris. Once again, if this was taken as an insult or attack against HM then try re-reading and understanding I was simply interested in determining how the marketing and identifiable features of a HM are determined by the consumer. I know the lineage behind the whole project and it is as sketchy of a start as the Bold Stripes and Bandits. They have had years of refinement by Albey and Paul. I have no need to bash any morph...and if I did I have 2 other morphs I would go after.

Whats interesting is bot you and John got your lines from Paul but have different ID features. This is where the confusion and need for lineage proof is needed...for the consumer. I know your lines and I know you have legit animals. If anything this thread should help boost yours and johns reputation and sales for having true lineage animals.

Thanks again for you two posting your animals and explaining the morph. Questioning genetics is NEEDED and should be done more often so that people who don't know can get good information and not hear say from a breeder trying to make a sale.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Whats interesting is bot you and John got your lines from Paul but have different ID features. This is where the confusion and need for lineage proof is needed...for the consumer. I know your lines and I know you have legit animals. If anything this thread should help boost yours and johns reputation and sales for having true lineage animals.

The 2 pure masks that John posted were actually produced by me from the 2 adult animals I posted. Like I said, there's a lot of variability to them. As long as you can trace them back to where it all started, you should be fine.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I also don't think that you personally were attacking the HM, but I did see this turning into something it wasn't intended to be just by the comments that were coming in. I dont remember you asking whether or not they think the HM is a real morph or not. I understand your intentions were to see if anyone would think that the geckos you posted would qualify as HM. I think most people just simply don't understand the morph and I agree they need to be informed of proper lineage.

 

[Laska]

Thank you Travis for not taking my post the wrong way... shheww! Anyways, why is it that Chris' and I HM's are different is a simple question... His breeders came from Paul Allen, some of the first created versions in my book, like alot of other morphs- these are line bred to keep the head patterns going, since its polygenetic- there will also be variants. BUT as you see the offspring have the lines I described around the head, and are more symmetrical than there parents, this is due to the line breeding- much like the farther involved line bred snows,which are much whiter and continue to whiten thru line breeding. Snow that are out crossed stem back to there "Normal Snow Roots". Same thing applies in the HM's...
The bolds Ive seen, dont have enough-"head patterning" similar to the leo's you posted. I great HM will have atleast 70% black/brown head patterning, the 25% head spotting in your pics cleary shows the difference- chris's Female HM is OUTSTANDING and one I know I could never talk him out of . Here's the thing, as buyers ourselves-and sellers and responsible breeders all WE can do is keep our records-keep our contacts and share this information with the people we sell to. IF everyone would take the time to do this and record all crosses-genetics-morphs-pics etc We wouldnt have to worry about well... Knockoffs... the supposed morphs that arent...

Simple buyers guideline for Pure Halloween Masks:
1.)Where did they come from? - Did they stem back to Paul Allen- if so and you want to verify that sale- ask for his contact info. if it cannot be given- how the heck did they get it from him- where was the other breeder in the sale-ask for that breeders # and seriously if that cant be given hang up the phone and look around somemore .... Trace everything back- you want something that is truly valued at $400 this much research is nothing for your hard earned money.
2.)Where are the Breeding pairs genetics-Parents- Pure HM to Pure HM? If one or both look funny or parents pics cant be forked over- Fork over a "Have a Nice Day" and hang up. Breeder should always have pics and genetics handy.-Even better-the Breeders Parents- Or in other words the Grandparents pics....
3)Pricing- Pure HM pricing will vary depending on sex,how big, and the breeders opinion on looks- THE BOLDER the head pattern the higher the price-General priceing for hatchlings either sex range from $200-$350 and Adults range from $230-$600<- (highest Ive seen and it was worth it.... ) If you see a price of $150 or less be very leery and follow the 2 steps above. The exception is when your buying multiples- buying multiples from most breeders often gets you a good price drop. When something sounds to good to be true-most often its just that. ASK ?'s, why this price-why is this one more, whats the difference between these 2,- stuff like that, the breeder should have no problem answering these ?'s.

IF most of us breeders can stick to breeding records-dates-purchase records and where they got them from and where there seller got them from, WE CAN help eliminate problems for the buyers aswell as ourselves to get rid of QUESTION-ABILITY on the look alike leo's- with simple paperwork and pictures. Cancelling out "competitiors" who just want to one up us by selling mis-informed-mis-documented genetics. To them I say show us your proof or dont do it- for we will call you out- and its simply to educate all of us on whats out there-what we've done and to stop the confusion on to muddy waters issues. To inform new breeders and such, of real genetics and not passing on whats not known and such.... Hope this makes sense guys...

If my guidelines make sense let me know- Eric and Chris know all about this because I did it to them before buying from them. They answered everything! above and beyond my guidelines.... I work hard for my money as do soo many others- so take your time with buying- dont cheap out for the better deal with a "maybe it is" leo. Biggest power for buyers is Questions- and tons of them!

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Thank you Travis for not taking my post the wrong way... shheww! Anyways, why is it that Chris' and I HM's are different is a simple question... His breeders came from Paul Allen, some of the first created versions in my book, like alot of other morphs- these are line bred to keep the head patterns going, since its polygenetic- there will also be variants. BUT as you see the offspring have the lines I described around the head, and are more symmetrical than there parents, this is due to the line breeding- much like the farther line bred snows are the whiter they get as most have seen and noticed once outcrossed its a whole to ball game...
The bolds Ive seen, dont have enough-"head patterning" similar to the leo's you posted. I great HM will have atleast 70% black/brown head patterning, the 25% head spotting in your pics cleary shows the difference- chris's Female HM is OUTSTANDING and one I know I could never talk him out of . Here's the thing, as buyers ourselves-and sellers and responsible breeders all WE can do is keep our records-keep our contacts and share this information with the people we sell to. IF everyone would take the time to do this and record all crosses-genetics-morphs-pics etc We wouldnt have to worry about well... Knockoffs... the supposed morphs that arent...

Simple buyers guideline for Pure Halloween Masks:
1.)Where did they come from? - Did they stem back to Paul Allen- if so and you want to verify that sale- ask for his contact info. if it cannot be given- how the heck did they get it from him- where was the other breeder in the sale-ask for that breeders # and seriously if that cant be given hang up the phone and look around somemore .... Trace everything back- you want something that is truly valued at $400 this much research is nothing for your hard earned money.
2.)Where are the Breeding pairs genetics-Parents- Pure HM to Pure HM? If one or both look funny or parents pics cant be forked over- Fork over a "Have a Nice Day" and hang up. Breeder should always have pics and genetics handy.-Even better-the Breeders Parents- Or in other words the Grandparents pics....
3)Pricing- Pure HM pricing will vary depending on sex,how big, and the breeders opinion on looks- THE BOLDER the head pattern the higher the price-General priceing for hatchlings either sex range from $200-$350 and Adults range from $230-$600<- (highest Ive seen and it was worth it.... ) If you see a price of $150 or less be very leery and follow the 2 steps above. The exception is when your buying multiples- buying multiples from most breeders often gets you a good price drop. When something sounds to good to be true-most often its just that. ASK ?'s, why this price-why is this one more, whats the difference between these 2,- stuff like that, the breeder should have no problem answering these ?'s.

IF most of us breeders can stick to breeding records-dates-purchase records and where they got them from and where there seller got them from, WE CAN help eliminate problems for the buyers aswell as ourselves to get rid of QUESTION-ABILITY on the look alike leo's- with simple paperwork and pictures. Cancelling out "competitiors" who just want to one up us by selling mis-informed-mis-documented genetics. To them I say show us your proof or dont do it- for we will call you out- and its simply to educate all of us on whats out there-what we've done and to stop the confusion on to muddy waters issues. To inform new breeders and such, of real genetics and not passing on whats not known and such.... Hope this makes sense guys...

If my guidelines make sense let me know- Eric and Chris know all about this because I did it to them before buying from them. They answered everything! above and beyond my guidelines.... I work hard for my money as do soo many others- so take your time with buying- dont cheap out for the better deal with a "maybe it is" leo. Biggest power for buyers is Questions- and tons of them!

Great post! I wish I could put things like this! LOL!

 

[pmkent1]

Out of curiousity, being that HM's are a line bred trait, if someone were to selectively breed animals for the same traits and eventually produce them, would they not be the same thing without beeing from the same line? If the point is the look them whats the difference between them?


Im really asking out of a curiosity. I dont pretend to know the history etc of it all. If theres something behind it all that I obviously dont know Im all ears

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Out of curiousity, being that HM's are a line bred trait, if someone were to selectively breed animals for the same traits and eventually produce them, would they not be the same thing without beeing from the same line? If the point is the look them whats the difference between them?


Im really asking out of a curiosity. I dont pretend to know the history etc of it all. If theres something behind it all that I obviously dont know Im all ears

If they do not come from the original bloodline, they are not Halloween Masks. If someone wanted to go through years and years of selective breeding to copycat a HM (why they would, I have no idea), they would more than likely want to make sure it was their own line and name it something different.


Kinda like if you owned a Shelby cobra and your neighbor bought a kit car that was a replica. They look the same, but they are not even close to the same. It's more than looks, it's genetics.

 

[Laska]

To be honest Paul, Id love to see it, but to have it happen, again-pop out a "HM" from original blood-NO HM influence would be one in a million to produce the exact same thing. To get onto that sort of topic reminds me of Black Pearl and JMG Charcoal... 2 things going on to produce the same outcome... SO with that said- You would be able to call it whatever you want-if it would come from no blood connected to the HM whatsoever- otherwise is would be an influence from the original HM and couldnt technically be all yours... Does that make sense? If I saw it, Id buy it-but Id need genetics on all the crosses from the start of the project- Im anal about genetics-I need to know everything to want to work with it. And if that were to happen-and Id breed them-the breeder I got them from would get credit for producing it first.

 

[pmkent1]

If they do not come from the original bloodline, they are not Halloween Masks. If someone wanted to go through years and years of selective breeding to copycat a HM (why they would, I have no idea), they would more than likely want to make sure it was their own line and name it something different.


Kinda like if you owned a Shelby cobra and your neighbor bought a kit car that was a replica. They look the same, but they are not even close to the same. It's more than looks, it's genetics.

Well, not quite the same. In that case you buying the quality if the manufacturing that Ford put into it. Not just the look.

In the line bred snow's case, I could put the years and years into it and come out with the same thing. Only difference being that line bred snows dont have a name. The genetics are the same (as expressed in the animal) but theres not a name brand to go with it.

Albino for example is a scientific name for a certain trait. There are difference strains of albino but the term "albino" desribes the gene. In this case "Halloween Mask" is the designation of that certain trait. And I would assume if that trait was found in another gene pool it would be designated the same thing.

Like I said before, Im definitely still learning here. Im certainly open to criticism if you have it...

 

[Wild West Reptile]

A little off topic but I just drove by a Shelby cobra. Lol!how weird is that?

Nothing wrong with asking questions, everyone is constantly learning here. I see what your getting at though. Leopard geckos are so muddled up that it's nearly impossible to know what you really have.