Proving out genes(SS and RAPTOR)

[EasiGregory]

So I recently bought a super snow juvenile gecko from a reptile show about two weeks ago. After a few conversations with the breeder Ive found out that the parents were a Mack Snow x Super Snow. The MS was possible het for eclipse and the SS was possible het for RAPTOR.

So If I want to prove this guy out what would be the best way to do that? Breed him to a gecko that is het/pure for RAPTOR? I want to try and prove out all three of the genes he is now possibly het for (patternless, eclipse, and tremper albino) in the most efficient way possible?

If I do this I should see babys showing any of the gene and that will prove him het for that gene based on what is showing? I'm assuming this will take a few breeding seasons? Im nervous cause I want take my time and do things right while proving him out.

Any suggestions and tips would much appreciated in regards to proving hets. Also just a FYI that I'm not going to be breeding him until next season most likely.

Thanks guys/gals
Greg

 

[VampyreByte]

You would want to breed to a straight up Raptor, not het raptor. Patternless stripe, which is in a raptor, is not a recessive trait to that won't matter to you. The only traits you'd be proving out are Tremper albino and Eclipse. You'd get all snows out of the pairing and if you didn't get any eclipse or albino then they aren't het.

So how did the breeder end up figuring out what his geckos were possible het for?

 

[EasiGregory]

I ended up talking to his partner that actually breeds the geckos. He was much more helpful and actually had records on both of the parents. Was very relieving that he knew what he was talking about and wasn't just the front man.

So I'm looking for a pure RAPTOR with no hets to breed with my little guy then. And you say that If I see any albinos or eclipses that means he is actually a proven het correct? By Snows, do you mean Mack Snows or Super Snows? I'm assuming all Mack Snows which I then could actually see the eclipse/albino gene correct?

Lets say he actually is het for either the eclipse or albino gene...would there be chances of other morphs like Super RAPTOR, or Super Snow Albino to come out? Is there a way for me to figure out the letters so I can plug them into a pungent square? Thanks again VampyreByte! I should just start PMing you all my questions

 

[VampyreByte]

You can use a Punnett square or just go to the reptilecalculator.com and that would be more helpful to you.
Yes i meant mack snows.
If you breed to a Raptor you'd get all snows and there would a be a chance of eclipse or albino. The only way you'd get super snows would be to breed to another snow or super snow. When you breed a super snow to anything you will get 100% snows. A super snow to a snow and you'd get 50% snow 50% Super Snow. A super snow to super snow is gonna be 100% super snow. And a snow to a snow would be 25% super snow, 25% normal, 50% snow.
But yes it would be easier to tell the eclipse gene with just a snow. But the eclipse gene also usually turns the legs and nose tip white also.

You could get:

Snow Raptor
Snow Eclipse het Tremper albino
Snow Tremper albino het Eclipse
or all Snow het Raptors

 

[DrCarrotTail]

If I were to try to prove him out I would look for a "straight up raptor." While you can usually see the eclipse gene in a super snow you can't always be 100% sure and I would want to be 100% sure if I were trying to prove out the het.

If you do get any eclipses or trempers or (if you're really lucky!!) a raptor then you can say your gecko is 100% het for those traits. You need about 20 non-visual babies to claim he is almost certainly not het (you can never prove it completely though).

 

[EasiGregory]

Wow I cant believe I spelled punnet square wrong...:main_no:

How would I display a RAPTOR on a punnet square if I were to try that method? EePpaa? Ee for eclipse -> Pp for patternless -> aa for albino? Super Snow poss het for RAPTOR would be displayed how? The letters and determining which letters to use and what each gene they stand for isn't clear to me yet.

So basically if a season or two of breeding him to a RAPTOR(with no hets) female produces nothing but normal looking Mack Snows then I can reasonably say he is non het for RAPTOR and is just a plain old Super Snow? Wont the mother RAPTOR have her genes passed on too? So in this case all the normal looking Mack Snows(that's what would be "Normal" from this breeding pair?) would all be Mack Snows het for RAPTOR(Snow gene from dad and RAPTOR genes from mom)? But If I get ANY children displaying any of the eclipse gene, patternless gene, or the tremper albino gene then that proves he is 100% het(for that specific gene or genes) because both parents need to carry the gene in order for the children to display them? This is more of me making sure I understand this thing entirely

Thanks again guys for being patient with me. This is really helping me understand and learn a lot. I've done lots of research but sometimes it nice to just talk it out. Makes me wish I would have payed attention in science class:main_rolleyes:

 

[EasiGregory]

Would love a bit of confirmation from anyone to give me some peace of mind that I DO understand. Also a bit of help on the punnet square. Thanks guys

 

[tb144050]

Sounds like you have it very close to being figured out. If you want specific examples of how the genetics combine to create different morphs, you can browse the Genetics section and review other examples by reading the "what would I get" topics. If you see any that I commented on, it is usually in greeeeeeaaat detail, especially about the Raptor genes (because I focused on Raptors this, my first, year).

But speaking of Raptors, don't forget that Vampire stated above that a Raptor's version of "patternless" is not genetic....it is linebred. I usually refer to a Raptor's "patternless" with quotation marks around the word ("patternless")....because ummmm...it is, but it isn't "patternless." It is officially called "patternless stripe" (if I recall correctly while I am sleepy......

----------------------------
example: Picture a doughnut. The doughnut has a hole in the center. The doughnut having a hole is a linebred trait.....just like a "stripe" or "reverse stripe" leopard gecko. Now picture the pastry known as a doughnut-hole...just a round pastry dot the side of a doughnut's hole. This doughnut hole is the linebred opposite of a doughnut.

If you mix the 2 linebreds, doughnut & doughnut-hole. You get something SOLID. If you mix the 2 linebreds, stripe and reverse-stripe...You get the "patternless stripe". This is the linebred "patternless" that is found in true Raptors.
----------------------------

Now, when I hear "het Raptor", I automatically know that means "het eclipse, het Tremper albino." (I don't even think or expect linebred "patternless" hatchlings unless I mate 2 linebred "patternless" Raptors together.)

----------------------------

Instead of using the Square method (which is correct), I highly recommend the "leopard gecko genetics calculators" available online. It does the math for you, and it will give you the answers.

If you want examples of the Square method explained, you can find some of my long responses in the Genetics section to posts titled "what would I get" (or similar titled). Or you can click my user name, click "see user's posts", and you can see what posts I have replied on...then look for posts that originated in the Morphs/Genetics section.

 

[EasiGregory]

Thanks! Ill now be digging through all your post and reading them all . The patternless trait makes much more sense now as I thought is was a gene like the eclipse and not something you perfect generation to generation by line breeding. So essentially based on the RAPTOR I get depends on how much of a patternless trait I will get in the baby's if I even do. Ill keep reading and learning! Thanks again guys for the push in the right direction.

 

[tb144050]

Thanks! Ill now be digging through all your post and reading them all . The patternless trait makes much more sense now as I thought is was a gene like the eclipse and not something you perfect generation to generation by line breeding. So essentially based on the RAPTOR I get depends on how much of a patternless trait I will get in the baby's if I even do. Ill keep reading and learning! Thanks again guys for the push in the right direction.

Yep..."patternless" is actually the linebred "patternless stripe".....not a gene.

Be very careful in your reading. Alot of posts have incorrect information. Some posts have information that can be confusing.

---
for example:
-In my early posts on the forums, I was WRONG about a lot of things.
-Since then, some of my posts may simply "oversimplify" the "patternless" trait, but I usually get corrected on that after a few responses to that post.
---


so remember that when you read a post, read the WHOLE post and all replies. Incorrect information is usually pointed out (or atleast debated) in the replies....even my mistakes. Too bad I can't go back and *edit* those posts...the forum "locks" your posts after a certain amount of time.

 

[EasiGregory]

Haha, will do man. Thanks a lot.