When do you panic

[ebuch]

When do you panic **Update on Owen - 6/28/2013**

when you have a new gecko that won't eat (from a pet store, yes I know, spare me please, I understand and respect the benefit of going to a good breeder, my wife bought it for me, and there's no real way around having it for the time being, but I digress) how long before you start to realize something is wrong?

This gecko was extremely thin when we got it, like, hardly any fat in the tail at all, and now I weighed it and it's lost a gram.

It won't eat crickets or meal worms or wax worms, it shows no interest in any food at all, which worries me because it's walking around the habitat, it's using the different hides, and it's become more and more friendly, but it just won't eat. I'm going to take it to the vet with a sample of its fecal matter and hopefully get a diagnosis or a dewormer or something. Mainly I just want to know if there's anything I can give it to help it keep its metabolism where it needs to be so it doesn't die before then because this little butthead is too stubborn to eat.

(gecko in avatar)

 

[lisa127]

How long have you had this gecko?

 

[ebuch]

How long have you had this gecko?

I've had it for 7 days, which I know isn't enough time for it to really adapt to its new home, and I shouldn't freak out just yet, but at the same time it came so malnourished that I'm afraid that it can't afford to go another week before starting to eat.

 

[lisa127]

You should fill this out and post it, so you can get some help.
http://geckoforums.net/f130-health-medications/70912.htm

 

[Ozy]

I got Ozy from a pet store and she's never had any issues... Getting them from a pet store isn't an instant death sentence... Your leo looks quite a lot bigger than Ozy when I got her.. Here's what Ozy looked like.

 

[ebuch]

You should fill this out and post it, so you can get some help.
http://geckoforums.net/f130-health-medications/70912.htm

About your leo:
- Sex Male, it's small but I'm pretty sure that I see bulges under the tail.
- Age & Weight Age is a tough call because his bands look like they've started fading and I can see bulges, but it is only around 3 inches long and 11-12 grams
- How long have you owned your leo 1 week
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend) A pet store, don't ask me which pet store I won't say.

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo I weigh him once every morning on account of how small he is, and I need to know if he's losing or gaining weight given his size.
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.
Like I said earlier I saw that there were cricket pieces in the cage and he did go to the bathroom, so maybe he ate something I just haven't noticed it. He is hyper active and goes back and forth between hides and acts like a normal juvenile leo, not sluggish or lethargic, just not eating.
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. Too young, too shortly owned.
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal) kind of runny at this point, but given that he's only been here a week I don't know what you can determine from that.
- When was the last time he/she went
last night
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on
The gecko is new and malnourished and I don't know how long I should wait to do something about it because I'm afraid that if he has to adjust for another week or two before eating he'll starve to death.


Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size 20 Wide/Tall Aquarium, 24" x 12" x 12" L x W x H
- Type (ex. glass tank) Glass
- Type of substrate Slate Tile
- Hides, how many, what kind 3, 1 cold 1 humid 1 hot
B) Heating
- Heat source 10 - 20 g UTH and 50 W Red night bulb
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side) 92 warm 82 cold (F)
- Method of regulating heat source, Currently regulating heat by adding or removing light as needed, heat is pretty much stabilized where it's at.
- What are you using to measure your temps, Strip thermometer near the bottom of the vivarium on the hot side to assure a 92 degree hot spot and I have a temperature gauge measuring the ambient temperature of the cage on the top of the cold side.
- Do you have any lights (describe) Yes, I have a 50 W red heat light to help keep the temperature up.
C) Cage mates Nope
- How many (males, females)
- Describe health, or previous problems

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much) I currently have 4 small meal worms in his dish consistently, and I took the back legs off of some crickets and let them run around ( Normally I don't keep food in their cage but I want him to learn where his food is on his own and it's just stressful for both of us for me to try and make him eat on my schedule at this point, I noticed this morning that there were pieces of a cricket, i.e. head and leg in his hide but I don't know if he ate it or the other 3 crickets did)
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect)
B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands) Tetra Fauna Reptocal for his calcium which I roll his food in before offering.
- What are you gut loading food with Fluke high calcium cricket diet and Fluke cricket quencher for the crickets.

 

[ebuch]

I got Ozy from a pet store and she's never had any issues... Getting them from a pet store isn't an instant death sentence...

I know but I've read a lot of negative comments about pet stores and pet store geckos and I don't feel that type of commentary in this particular thread will actually help Owen get better, so I'm just asking that it be set aside here at least until the issue is resolved.

 

[lisa127]

The strip thermometers are not accurate at all. I use an infrared temperature gun to measure the surface temps of the ground on the hot and cool side. Are you able to get your hands on a temp gun, maybe at a Radio Shack or something? If not, you can order them online.

My guess is that with a UTH and a heat lamp it is much hotter than you think it is. I would try turning off the heat lamp and just use the UTH. Most people use thermostats with their UTH. I do have a rheostat (lamp dimmer) attached to a couple of cages here instead, but only because I do not work in the summer at all and only work part time during the rest of the year. So I am never gone from home more than 2 hours at a time. I'm here checking temps constantly with my temp gun...lol.

Other than the temps, the rest of the setup sounds fine.

Btw, he is much too small to determine gender at this point.

I wanted to add, being hyperactive and running between hides could be an indication it is too hot in the enclosure. Not 100%, but it's possible.

 

[ebuch]

...

There's an above shot, the tail is what worries me.

...

I know, measuring the temperature is a point of frustration for me right now. I'll have to invest in a non-contact infrared surface thermometer. It doesn't feel very hot to touch, it feels warm. The gecko only spends a couple of hours in the humid hide, and it only runs around when I try to get it out to weigh it, other than that it's in its hide, on the warm side, under the light. I think it if it were cooking it'd choose the side that isn't as warm to touch.

I think there's a good possibility that I'm stressing this gecko out by stressing out over this gecko. I've been wound up tight about it since I saw the tail. The first Leo I ever had came to our house with a parasite (this was years and years ago) and my wife knew it had a parasite when she brought it home she just didn't want the vet to euthanize it on account of how inhumane she finds the methods, and she didn't want to leave it at the pet store to get neglected, so we ran gecko hospice for a couple months while it died. It ate and everything and was a perfectly friendly little gecko, we called him Jar-jar, but it just couldn't hold any weight and eventually died. I don't want to have to deal with that again, and it's causing me to worry almost obsessively. I think getting the heat right and leaving it alone for a day or two might go a long way.

 

[Samantha12]

He does look quite thin, but honestly not abnormal for a pet store gecko. They usually aren't able to properly feed all their animals and house them all together so a lot of geckos get bullied out. Most pet store lizards bounce back pretty well; leopard geckos are a hardy animal. I think if you adjust your heat and give him a little time alone he'll start eating and gaining weight. However, runny feces could be a sign of worms. A vet visit could be a good idea.

 

[lisa127]

I agree that maybe you should not weigh him for a few days. Let him be so he an adjust and not be stressed out. Then maybe he'll start to eat.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I agree with others that the light is probably making his enclosure too hot. I would stop using the light completely, make sure the UTH isn't too hot, move his cage to a dimly lit room that has the least amount of foot traffic possible, and count 10 mealworms into his bowl. Check on him once per day and count the mealworms to see if he is eating.

My hatchlings have all been pigs. Even those that were 13-15g that I had shipped to me ate the evening of the day they arrived. A few would go off food for a few days if they were shedding but not a week at 12g - 30g yes, but that small no. I hate to be the realist, but if I were you I would be worried. Babies can go downhill quite quickly since they don't have fat reserves to call on to get them through hard times. I would do the things suggested and make a vet appointment for Thursday or Friday of this week now. If he starts to eat and improve, cancel it. If not, you can get him in and try to do something to save him before he's too thin to save. I know its a harsh thing to say, but sometimes there are issues with babies that cannot be fixed. If he does not improve by the end of the week I might consider bringing him back to the store if you got a 14 day health guarantee and pick out a healthier baby.

 

[B&B Geckos]

Please read the following posts.
They can survive a Long time without food:
http://geckoforums.net/f162-general-discussion/95519.htm
However, as Dr. CT explained, there's reason to be concerned

How to acclimate:
See post 8
http://geckoforums.net/f130-health-medications/93092.htm

Although temp guns are very useful, IMO they're not as crucial as a thermostat. I would invest in a thermostat to stabilize the temp, rather than drivemyself crazy with the temp gun.
http://geckoforums.net/f126-general-care-husbandry/95329.htm

I also recommend eliminating the light.
Best.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I'd agree that in those posts waiting was okay as they all concerned healthy geckos over 40g but a baby can't go that long without food. The OP has a bitty 12g gecko. In my experience babies that size don't fast for more than a few days unless there is a big problem, and over a week without eating at that size is both abnormal and dangerous. They don't have a big fat tail to use for energy while they are not eating and they tend to like to be warm so their metabolism speeds up and they grow faster. Once they start to lose weight they can go downhill really quickly. Mine are so hungry at that size that food trumps all else. They will eat in my hand if I pick them up as long as they see a moving worm. I just can't imagine weighing him everyday is the cause of so much stress it would override this drive and cause him to lose weight. IMO there has to be something else going on be it lights, parasites, or something worse.

Not trying to ring the panic bells too much for the OP but just want to make him aware of the potential of the situation and the necessity for acting now rather than waiting another week to see. A week may be too long for such a small gecko that's tail is already very thin.

 

[lisa127]

I'd agree that in those posts waiting was okay as they all concerned healthy geckos over 40g but a baby can't go that long without food. The OP has a bitty 12g gecko. In my experience babies that size don't fast for more than a few days unless there is a big problem, and over a week without eating at that size is both abnormal and dangerous. They don't have a big fat tail to use for energy while they are not eating and they tend to like to be warm so their metabolism speeds up and they grow faster. Once they start to lose weight they can go downhill really quickly. Mine are so hungry at that size that food trumps all else. They will eat in my hand if I pick them up as long as they see a moving worm. I just can't imagine weighing him everyday is the cause of so much stress it would override this drive and cause him to lose weight. IMO there has to be something else going on be it lights, parasites, or something worse.

Not trying to ring the panic bells too much for the OP but just want to make him aware of the potential of the situation and the necessity for acting now rather than waiting another week to see. A week may be too long for such a small gecko that's tail is already very thin.

I have to agree with all this.

 

[ebuch]

I'd agree that in those posts waiting was okay as they all concerned healthy geckos over 40g but a baby can't go that long without food. The OP has a bitty 12g gecko. In my experience babies that size don't fast for more than a few days unless there is a big problem, and over a week without eating at that size is both abnormal and dangerous. They don't have a big fat tail to use for energy while they are not eating and they tend to like to be warm so their metabolism speeds up and they grow faster. Once they start to lose weight they can go downhill really quickly. Mine are so hungry at that size that food trumps all else. They will eat in my hand if I pick them up as long as they see a moving worm. I just can't imagine weighing him everyday is the cause of so much stress it would override this drive and cause him to lose weight. IMO there has to be something else going on be it lights, parasites, or something worse.

Not trying to ring the panic bells too much for the OP but just want to make him aware of the potential of the situation and the necessity for acting now rather than waiting another week to see. A week may be too long for such a small gecko that's tail is already very thin.

I did what you said with the meal worms and he ate 0. Is it wrong that I don't want to pay the vet bills and would prefer to just return him to the pet store? I'd hate to take him to the vet and realize that he's doomed anyway and then have it die after the guaranty expires. I mean, I know that sounds cold but I have other geckos that I'm happy with and just don't want to attach myself to something that doesn't really have any hope anyway.

 

[ebuch]

**Update**

He's eaten 10 worms over the last 24 hours and is up 2 grams. I think I'm going to keep with this one and maybe with some love he'll make it out of the woods.

 

[lisa127]

I'm so glad he ate! Keep us posted on his progress.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Yay so glad to hear he's eating! If you made sure they didn't crawl out of the dish and he keeps them down for 24 hours I would think he'll be okay

 

[ebuch]

Yay so glad to hear he's eating! If you made sure they didn't crawl out of the dish and he keeps them down for 24 hours I would think he'll be okay

They're not getting out of the dish, he's only eating 2 or 3 a night, but I guess it's a start.

I'm giving him more space and have decided to do the following.

1. Now that he's starting to get stable I'm going to give him another day or two and deep clean the entire enclosure from top to bottom, fully sterilize it.

2. I'm going to give him repta + boost from fluker's because I've read good things about it, and when I gave it to him on his nose today he ate it right up, and stopped running around to let me give him more.

So there's an appetite in there somewhere. His weight is holding steady at 11 grams, but, he had a solid bowel movement last night! So I'm fine with him coming from 12 to 11.

All in all I think that I can get his metabolism kick started and have him eating as much as the other two, if I can just keep him alive and stable for another week, maybe less.

I think it was the heat in the vivarium, combined with him not really trusting me, combined with him going from calci-sand to slate, combined with him going to a brand new environment, combined with him already being stressed and underfed at the pet store. I'll post more pics in a week or so, but I'm starting to get really optimistic.