My hatching temperature recipe

[Landen]

This can not work even if you have only one female... There will be a time laps of two weeks between clutches... You can only do this if you are incubating only one clutch in an incubator...

Well so far so good, I am a small breeder myself with only a dozen breeders. However, between two incubators, timing everything as best as I could, and the ability to allow any early eggs to incubate in a rubbermade that sits on the top shelf at a constant 80-81 degrees in my reptile room, Therefore giving me the ability to be prepaired for any early or unexpected clutches.

So for my fellow "small breeders" out there wanting to know.....It is working just great so far.

I do agree with you that it wouldn't work for large scale breeders though.

 

[Landen]

Some people may feel that way, but in my opinion, why would you not do everything possible to increase the potential of your gecko's? Isn't that what we all do in some sort of way? It happens like that in nature when the weather and temps change so why not do it in captivity to maximize their potential? Just my opinion.

If we're following that idea, why do we all put them on paper towels? That's certainly not found naturally, many in the wild die of impaction naturally I'm sure. Or also why would you gut load your insects? They're not that rich or well fed in the wild also. We all do things to improve our animals. Please don't take this as being arguementative, but I do spend alot of time and energy into making sure that my gecko's are 100%. I'm constantly looking for things to improve. I just simply don't understand your point of view of it being unethical or misleading.

 

[Gregg M]

Some people may feel that way, but in my opinion, why would you not do everything possible to increase the potential of your gecko's? Isn't that what we all do in some sort of way? It happens like that in nature when the weather and temps change so why not do it in captivity to maximize their potential? Just my opinion.

Firstly, it is misleading and the enhanced coloration is not genetic and can not be passed down... Incubation temperature induced coloring or pattern can not be replicated by breeding...

The best way to increase the potential of your stock is to obtain genetically bright animals and breed them to create equal or better offspring...

Also, the temperatures where reptiles lay their eggs are very stable throughout incubatiom... The temps inside burrows, compost piles, leaf litter, or termite mounds, are not affected by outside temps for the most part... So your theory that it happens like that in nature is not valid...

If we're following that idea, why do we all put them on paper towels? That's certainly not found naturally, many in the wild die of impaction naturally I'm sure. Or also why would you gut load your insects? They're not that rich or well fed in the wild also.

Landen, seriously, where are you getting your info from???
It is true that paper towels are not found in nature... But I am will to bet that not many geckos in the wild die of impaction... Seriously, how well can a species thrive it the very environment it was built to live on is killing it??? Impaction in captivity comes from poor husbandry...

Also, wild insects are very well fed in the wild... They eat fresh vegitation, grains, other insects, and carion on a daily basis... What makes you think they are not well fed or rich in nutrients??? Have you ever seen a skinny cricket in the wild??? LOL

 

[OneFootedAce]

Firstly, it is misleading and the enhanced coloration is not genetic and can not be passed down... Incubation temperature induced coloring or pattern can not be replicated by breeding...

The best way to increase the potential of your stock is to obtain genetically bright animals and breed them to create equal or better offspring...

Also, the temperatures where reptiles lay their eggs are very stable throughout incubatiom... The temps inside burrows, compost piles, leaf litter, or termite mounds, are not affected by outside temps for the most part... So your theory that it happens like that in nature is not valid...



Landen, seriously, where are you getting your info from???
It is true that paper towels are not found in nature... But I am will to bet that not many geckos in the wild die of impaction... Seriously, how well can a species thrive it the very environment it was built to live on is killing it??? Impaction in captivity comes from poor husbandry...

Also, wild insects are very well fed in the wild... They eat fresh vegitation, grains, other insects, and carion on a daily basis... What makes you think they are not well fed or rich in nutrients??? Have you ever seen a skinny cricket in the wild??? LOL

ditto.

 

[Landen]

Also, the temperatures where reptiles lay their eggs are very stable throughout incubatiom... The temps inside burrows, compost piles, leaf litter, or termite mounds, are not affected by outside temps for the most part... So your theory that it happens like that in nature is not valid...

Your not serious are you?... your a moderator, you should be smarter than that. Of course temperatures in the wild change, do you think that every egg in the wild hatches successfully? Have you ever seen or experienced nature? I'm going to take that as your opinion, thank your for that and move on now.



Landen, seriously, where are you getting your info from???
It is true that paper towels are not found in nature... But I am will to bet that not many geckos in the wild die of impaction... Seriously, how well can a species thrive it the very environment it was built to live on is killing it??? Impaction in captivity comes from poor husbandry...


Also, wild insects are very well fed in the wild... They eat fresh vegitation, grains, other insects, and carion on a daily basis... What makes you think they are not well fed or rich in nutrients??? Have you ever seen a skinny cricket in the wild??? LOL

You don't think that one gecko hasn't died in the wild from eating a cricket and getting a mouth full of sand? I hate to tell you buddy, but in the wild a vast majority of animals born each year die early due to a number of situations. Situations that we as captive breeders strive to eliminate, to allow our animals a better chance at a successful life. That is the same to me as using a simple method of incubation to achieve nicer animals. I know other breeders larger than myself have used this method. I can appreciate your opinion, but I think you could have addressed it a little better. Have a good one...

 

[Landen]

One more question for you, is your SIM product a naturally occuring process in the wild? Would that be considered a process to acheive a better result in your hatchling?

 

[Gregg M]

You don't think that one gecko hasn't died in the wild from eating a cricket and getting a mouth full of sand? I hate to tell you buddy, but in the wild a vast majority of animals born each year die early due to a number of situations. Situations that we as captive breeders strive to eliminate, to allow our animals a better chance at a successful life. That is the same to me as using a simple method of incubation to achieve nicer animals. I know other breeders larger than myself have used this method. I can appreciate your opinion, but I think you could have addressed it a little better. Have a good one...

First lets forget about my mod status in this thread... Being a mod has nothing to do with my knowledge or my experience with feild herping... I was also a member of this and many other sites long before I became a mod... I was also keeping and breeding reptiles long before these internet forums were around...

Landen, seriously now, do some research... Reptiles spacifically seek out or create their own egg laying burrows based on the humidity and temperature of that spot... If there is too much of a fluctuation in temp and/or humidity, they will not lay them there... They will continue to test dig until the proper spot is found... That is why you will see reptiles sit in a nest box days before hatching... They are testing to make sure there are not sharp tep spikes or fluctuations... Again, in the wild, nest spot temps and humidity levels will stay pretty consistant throughout incubation...

And I am going to say, no, geckos do not die from impaction in the wild if they catch a cricket and get sand in their mouth... Like parasite loads and other natural things that come with reptiles, substrate impaction is a problem only in captivity... Many people who have had impaction problems were either not keeping their geckos at proper temps and not hydrating them well enough or they had gotten the gecko from someone who did not care for it properly...

The vast majority of hatchlings that die every season fall victim to predation, not sand impaction... That is call survival of the fittest... The only thing we eliminate are predatory animals from eating our reptiles...

One more question for you, is your SIM product a naturally occuring process in the wild? Would that be considered a process to acheive a better result in your hatchling?

You are comparing apples to potatos here... Doing thing to increase hatch rates is nothing like altering the look of an animal by screwing with incubation temps... Again, if you are breeding reptiles to look a certain way, it should be through the passing down of genetics...

If you are changing the look of an animal by inducing it through incubation temps, you might as well just dip your geckos in food coloring... It is the same effect... If you breed two animals that are super bright because of incubation temp manipulation, those colors will not breed true in the next generation... If you breed two animals that are super bright because of genetics, you will produce animals that are just as nice, if not, even better...

 

[Landen]

Ok gregg. I'm not going to sit here and ***** with you. This thread got way off from the topic it started at. You think it's unethical to maximize the potential of offspring. I would never dye and animal. That's talking apples to potatoes. Obviously I hit a nerve with you, now I know your demeanor.

 

[Kristi23]

Ok gregg. I'm not going to sit here and bang balls with you. This thread got way off from the topic it started at. You think it's unethical to maximize the potential of offspring. I would never dye and animal. That's talking apples to potatoes. Obviously I hit a nerve with you, now I know your demeanor.

I think Gregg answered you very well and I agree with what he says about the temp manipulation. Start with nice colored animals and you'll get nice colored babies. You shouldn't have to change the temps to make that happen.

 

[Vision Geckos]

I just personally think it's misleading if you sell a gecko that you've physically altered by changing temps. Then I'll go on your website and buy the gecko thinking that its offspring will be just as radiant.

If you want to do it for your own purposes, that's fine. But if you intend to breed it afterwards, tell the person you're selling it to that you've brightened them up on your own.

 

[Landen]

Ok thanks guys

 

[Landen]

If you want to do it for your own purposes, that's fine. But if you intend to breed it afterwards, tell the person you're selling it to that you've brightened them up on your own.

I don't hide anything. I'm not trying to mislead anyone, never have. Don't they all change as they get older anyways? I just don't see the problem here.... If I produced a better looking animal with a certain process, why wouldn't someone do the same to keep producing better and better offspring. Guys RT does this, who has something from him in their racks? It's being done everyday, it's just a choice we all have available to make. You guys don't agree and I can certainly appreiciate that.

So far, i've produced only 6 offspring this year by doing this. I'm going to do some the old way too, I'll label both at the shows and we'll see which ones the customer enjoys better (because that's what ultimately matters to me, that the new owner is completely satisfied), and of course I will provide all the information on how it was produced as I've always done.

 

[Gregg M]

Don't they all change as they get older anyways? I just don't see the problem here.... If I produced a better looking animal with a certain process, why wouldn't someone do the same to keep producing better and better offspring.

Leos that are good looking genetically and are cared for properly do not get ugly as they get older... I have a 7 year old sunglow that is as awesome as she was when she was a hatchling...

Guys RT does this, who has something from him in their racks? It's being done everyday, it's just a choice we all have available to make. You guys don't agree and I can certainly appreiciate that.

LOL... At the scale Ron breeds at do you think for a second he manipulates incubation temps??? Do you think he even uses incubators??? Most large scale breeders have incubation rooms, not incubators...
There is a good reason why many breeders do not agree with incubation temp manipulation... I will get to a couple as we go on in this post...

So far, i've produced only 6 offspring this year by doing this. I'm going to do some the old way too, I'll label both at the shows and we'll see which ones the customer enjoys better (because that's what ultimately matters to me, that the new owner is completely satisfied), and of course I will provide all the information on how it was produced as I've always done.

So here is what will happen... If the buyer plans to breed your nice "incubationaly induced" bright animals, they are going to be pretty pissed off if the offspring are not as bright as the parent animals... So yeah they will be happy at first but will not be so happy after they breed them... Sure, you made a sale but that customer will look somewhere else when they want to look for more breeding stock... If you would have sold them genetically fit breeders that produced killer offspring for them, they will most likely go to you again for more breeding stock...

So basically all you will be catering to are people looking for pet quality leos and not breeding stock... What other things can go on with this "method"??? Well it can increase birth defects and cause embryos to die during incubation... That there is enough to keep me from doing this method and from buying from those who use this method...

I am not trying to give you a hard time... I am trying to help you understand why it is looked down upon...

 

[Landen]

Apparently I'm not allowed to state my opinion without getting infractions so Even though your first post was very personal and flat out said my testing of this process was unethical. Sounds like we both should have wound up with points. I'm done here.

 

[eric]

I've done the temp change switcheroo! And won't do it again! From my experience there were way too many tail kinks and deformities to justify a little more color. And I'd agree that nothing beats exceptional genetics!

This female hatched at 82 degrees! Paulnj owns her now. The breeding was from an A.P.T.OR from Kelli @ HISS crossed to an A.P.T.OR from Alberto @ A&M. Again there is no substitute for exceptional genetics!
A.P.T.OR 1 DAY OLD

ABOUT A MONTH OLD

I have more from them if you guys need more proof!

 

[Gregg M]

Apparently I'm not allowed to state my opinion without getting infractions so Even though your first post was very personal and flat out said my testing of this process was unethical. Sounds like we both should have wound up with points. I'm done here.

Landen, you are allowed to have your opinion and express it... You are allowed to disagree with me and any of the mods in the public forum...

What you can not do is this....

You can not insinuate that I am a stupid person or that I should be smarter than I am...

Your not serious are you?... your a moderator, you should be smarter than that.

Try to bring my product out (had nothing to do with the thread) in a negative light...

One more question for you, is your SIM product a naturally occuring process in the wild?

Talk about banging reproductive organs together... As mild as you might see it, we have kids on here as youngs as 13...

Ok gregg. I'm not going to sit here and bang ***** with you.

Amd you can not say stuff like this either...

Obviously I hit a nerve with you, now I know your demeanor.

So, with all that, your last post, and the nice little message you left for me on my profile I figure I can give you enough infractions to give you a 2 week vacation but I have not done so, have I... Take your well earned single infraction and chill out... Its not the end of the world!!!

 

[KelliH]

I still remember how upset people were when their female Trempers hatched out dark.

I don't have a problem with manipulating the temps as long as you are honest with your customer and let them know. I don't do it, I just incubate female Tremper eggs at 86.

 

[KelliH]

Apparently I'm not allowed to state my opinion without getting infractions so Even though your first post was very personal and flat out said my testing of this process was unethical. Sounds like we both should have wound up with points. I'm done here.

Landen... your infraction was not for having a differing opinion. It was for referring to your discussion with Gregg as banging a certain body part together. :main_lipsrsealed:

We all have different opinions on things, and it's perfectly fine to express them on GeckoForums (even if you are a staff member). There are somethings that are better left unsaid though. :main_yes: The visual I got in my head after reading the "infracted" post made me feel kinda sickly for a minute, for real.

 

[Landen]

passion + dissagreements + doing this all while at work between calls = mistakes

I do appologize for what was said and was out of line. I've said this privately to you and now publicly for those watching.

And kelli, It was not meant literally

 

[Gregg M]

Thanks Landen, I am happy we can put our dissagreement behind us and move forward...

And if you feel I was getting out of line with you, I did not mean for it to come off that way and I am sorry as well...