cannibalism studies

[marula]

is ethic for you guys do this kind of study? is really necessary?
(attention...really strong pics in this link)
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58414#58414

 

[MackSnow]

It's hard to see such pictures..
But it's a good proof so everybody can see it's possible adult leopard geckos might eat hatchlings....
To do something like this with a healthy gecko is very bad..

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Also, if you read the post, it says:

Yesterday i decided to euthanize one of my young leopards - which hatched in late September - it was not growing, not feeding and shedding badly (probably due to stress from a cagemate, which grows rapidly from the same clutch).

The hatchling was going to be euthanized anyway.

The proof provided in the pictures is invaluable. Not many people would "risk" doing this, and for a newbie, it's a wake up call on why not to cohab hatchlings and adults.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

While it is horrific to see these graphic pictures and I do not practice this, I do feel it is completely ethical to cull severely deformed and non-thriving hatchlings by feeding them to other carnivorous reptiles. The only concern I would have is if the hatchling was infected with something that could ultimately be transmitted through ingestion.

For me, the unethical part of this 'experiment' was not to have separated the two clutchmates if the smaller/weaker one was under that much stress...

 

[BalloonzForU]

I only have one problem with this "Test". Why was the hatchling not well to begin with? Was this person sure that it wasn't a parasite issue, before feeding it to an adult? Without knowing for sure the cuase of the hatchling being weak, I'd be concerned of passing something on to the adult.


LOL I see Marcia beat me to the punch, while I was typing.

 

[gixxer3420]

What do people think is going to happen? Was there people out there that actually thought that adult leopard geckos wouldn;t eat a baby leopard gecko, come on there has to be smarter people out there than that. i had 4 babies hatch at the same time, right before oneof my college classes so i thought it would be safe to keep tjhe 4 together in a 10 gallon tank until I got back from my class ( an hour). Well I was wrong the largest hatchling ate one of his siblings. Now i keep everyt baby seperate no-matter what. Same thing goes for bearded dragons. the only thing I house together as babies is veiled chameleons. Not really sure why this stupid experiment was even captured by camera. just my two cents.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

What do people think is going to happen? Was there people out there that actually thought that adult leopard geckos wouldn;t eat a baby leopard gecko, come on there has to be smarter people out there than that.

You can't assume that their are "smarter people out there." If that were true, I wouldn't see the same darn question on cohabbing cornsnakes posted every week or people crying that one of the hatchlings ate its cage mate. People a) don't think & b) don't want to listen to experience.

 

[marula]

yes...i think is important give the correct information and use a strong way for give the right advice and info...a strong pic can change something in people mind...
...but you can explaind how bad is the war without pics with blood everywhere...and you can explaind how wrong is put a baby in the same cage with an adult without try to see what's happend with one of YOUR baby (and the bad thing is: he stay with his camera for look and take pics...i can't put my attention in this or i will be mad)....
...i COMPLITLY DON'T UNDERSTAND why somebady need to do this kind of study...and like marcia and felicia say : "why this baby was in this bad condition?"

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I can't speak for the person whose pictures are in question...

BUT, sometimes hatchlings just fail to thrive. They never feed and waist away to nothing or are born with kinks or other deformities. In the second picture it looks to me like that hatchling has a spine kink, but it could just be how the picture was taken.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

What do people think is going to happen? Was there people out there that actually thought that adult leopard geckos wouldn;t eat a baby leopard gecko, come on there has to be smarter people out there than that.

Yes. There ARE people out there like that... one in particular I can think of on this very forum.I can't speak for the person whose pictures are in question...

BUT, sometimes hatchlings just fail to thrive. They never feed and waste away to nothing or are born with kinks or other deformities. In the second picture it looks to me like that hatchling has a spine kink, but it could just be how the picture was taken.

If you read the original post, the person said he felt the little one was stressed as a result of being in with it's clutchmate. So, I guess my question would be "why wasn't the sibling removed?"

 

[bittner_344]

marula, didnt everyone discuss this with you on geckophile? this is what they would do in the wild, why is it soo different in captivity??
brett

 

[PaulSage]

this is what they would do in the wild, why is it soo different in captivity??
brett

Just a random thought... but if we're going to interfere with Mother Nature [by keeping geckos is little plastic bins] I think we can at least try to do a little better than her by using our resources and what little knowledge we do have to give them all the best possible chance.

 

[BalloonzForU]

Just a random thought... but if we're going to interfere with Mother Nature [by keeping geckos is little plastic bins] I think we can at least try to do a little better than her by using our resources and what little knowledge we do have to give them all the best possible chance.

AMEN!!!

 

[BalloonzForU]

I can't speak for the person whose pictures are in question...

BUT, sometimes hatchlings just fail to thrive. They never feed and waist away to nothing or are born with kinks or other deformities. In the second picture it looks to me like that hatchling has a spine kink, but it could just be how the picture was taken.

I agree failure to thrive could have been the cause here, but the person stated that the hatchling was being stressed by its clutchmate, and we all know that stress can cause higher than normal levels of parasites.

As for the kink in the spine, that could have happened when the adult bit it.

We will never know for sure what all caused the hatchling not to thrive, other than the fact that it's clutchmate bullied it. However I think feeding it to an adult, just gives some of the people out there that "DON'T THINK" some very bad ideas on what they can do with a sick hatchling.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

However I think feeding it to an adult, just gives some of the people out there that "DON'T THINK" some very bad ideas on what they can do with a sick hatchling.

That is a very good point.

While I look at the photo as education why not to house hatchlings with adults, it could be switched around by others as a way to "discard" unwanted hatchlings or as something "cool" to do. I shudder at individuals who think like that. :main_thumbsdown:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If you read the original post, the person said he felt the little one was stressed as a result of being in with it's clutchmate. So, I guess my question would be "why wasn't the sibling removed?"

O, I read it Marcia. My comment was for the practice in general, disregarding the owners claim that the hatchling was bullied and that was why he was failing to thrive. I 100% agree that if bullying is witnessed, they need seperated. It's not fair to the weaker of the cage mates.

 

[marula]

marula, didnt everyone discuss this with you on geckophile? this is what they would do in the wild, why is it soo different in captivity??
brett

..all of you guy know that..i'm a dog breeder...and dog caming from wolf...but i don't think they are the same of wolf...tons of domestications years can change something...and leo is one of the most domestical reptile..
i know...this happend in their natural habitat, but do that in captivity is only an escuse for a cruelty action...

Just a random thought... but if we're going to interfere with Mother Nature [by keeping geckos is little plastic bins] I think we can at least try to do a little better than her by using our resources and what little knowledge we do have to give them all the best possible chance.

thanks paul, this is what i was thinking about when i was post my opinion about difference from wild action and captivity action...

and sorry... but...i can't immagine to be able to decided to do that and take my camera for take pics during this...
..some people own reptiles because with reptiles people can do what they like...there are less controll with reptiles...

i'm not sure about the good or bad intentions of the owner of those pics...but is really controversial way to resolving this kind of problem...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I'm actually glad that Jan posted those photos on Geckophile. I can think of at least one person who is a regular here on GeckoForums that might benefit from seeing them.

I agree with Paul wholeheartedly that we, as keepers of these beautiful geckos, should opt for choosing lower life-form feeders. Which reminds me of a poem:

"In His wisdom, God created the fly... and then forgot to tell us why".

 

[LeosForLess]

The big problem is that they shouldnt have let that gecko get into that condition. Soon as a gecko is acting weird/not eating, it should be seperated.

Now had this been a deformed gecko, i wouldnt care at all.

 

[dsreptiles]

I personally found these pics a bit disturbing. It's a good lesson, yes, but still I find it hard to believe that hatcling was unsavable. I've seen worse than that, I mean that tail still had some meat to it. It wasn't pin sized or shriveled. Makes me wonder if they even attempted to rescue it. Offer it, it's own bin, slurry any different types of food besides what they thought it should be eating. Just because I wish all my geckos would eat meal worms as a staple doesn't mean if they don't they're doomed.

As far as that spine kink the only one I saw was where the adult took the first bite causing a bend in the spine. As far as this gecko being a 100% healthy, I'd like to see some proof of that. I'm sure that was more of an oppinion than anything. Anyways I'm dont with htis subject, and going to watch the packers and seahawks fall all over the field.