TokayKeeper
Evil Playsand User
- Messages
- 718
- Location
- Albuquerque, NM, USA
As some of you that were around here years ago know, I kind of go all out on gutloading my crickets. I've been thinking about my approach to this, especially with a little research/knowledge gained in dog foods through working for a national, large-chain pet store as a products manager.
That said, this posting stems off of an earlier thread (Poll: Mealworms or Crickets?) within this sub-forum in which I posted.
I'll quote user Jenna4Herps post (post #20) of some feeder insect nutrition analysis and my post (post #22)
In the past the dog food in my list above was typically a cheaper brand (ol' roy) of a puppy formulation. I opted for puppy due to the increased protein matter percentage. However, as I stated, my current job got me to thinking about quality. Quality was something I did think of using a cheaper brand. I mainly went this route due to success a friend of mine had with using either a cheap dog food or trout chow for feeding to his western box turtles (both ornate and desert subspecies) where he mixed it with fruits and veggies too. The idea with the cheaper food was the increased plant filler content, but much of that is typically things like soy meal, wheat-gluten, or corn meal.
Again, as I said I've been re-thinking things as of late. In years passed where I paired geckos (2001-2002, 2006, 2008, 2010) I've not had nearly the results I'd had back in 1997 and 1998. Ignoring genetics as possible, legitimate factors, I figured (assumed?) that my other external issue was nutritionally based. My quoted self above dates back to Jan 2008 and was a mix I'd used from 2001 until then. That list and my offspring results got me questioning what I'd done differently since my first 2 seasons (1997 and 1998) of breeding leopard geckos, particularly since out of 1.5 geckos in 1997 resulted in 90 fertile eggs, no infertiles, and 89 hatchlings (hatchling #90 was full-term dead in egg).
More long windedness...
All that said, I asked my best friend (box turtle guy I mentioned earlier) if he remembered anything I did differently from back in my successful days, particularly since his Ph.D. research at UNM is centralized around nutritional analysis utilizing controlled (captive animals of set, specific diets) and wild desert box turtles and desert tortoises. However, his research pertains to stable isotopes in understanding climactic conditions (I'll save the boring details). He recalled 2 things: 1) I used solely potatos or oranges (moisture source) and tetra tropical fish flakes as food for my crickets and 2) my calcium dust was some off-brand reptile product I'd got from the local pet store that for the life of us we can't remember what it is but it was not one of the commonly used brands of today or years past.
Presently my "gut-loading" consists of passing butternut squash and carrots through a food processor, chopping them into finely minced pieces and feeding Omega One Super Color fish flakes. Crickets are then either dusted with Rep-Cal Brand Herptivite or Calcium with Vit D3. This (the gut-loading) started after last season, where I had one of the worst production seasons since 2002; I only got 4 offspring out of 2 pairings that yielded only 10 eggs - ouch! Sadly, 2002 saw my geckos yield over 200 eggs out of 40 breeders but with many infertile eggs and some developmental deformities (a few twinned embryos where the twins didn't cleave, resulting in siamese twinning up to eyelid deformities [eye development is linked to vitamin a]).
I keep rambling and not getting to where I'm going with this...
So if you've made it this far, all the above rolling through my head has me working on this next concoction. I know that some of the more "dedicated" fish keepers make their own foods to avoid unnecessary fillers. And we also know Allen Repashy has his line of prepared foods. But I've always been one to kind of do-it-myself.
Currently I'm torn for my dog food route. My options are down to Blue Buffalo's Wilderness line (chicken flavor) or AvoDerm's Natural Puppy formulation, based upon their respective dashboard content analysis (protein, fat, and total carbohydrate percentages) and ingredients. Originally I was leaning towards AvoDerm due to its use of avocados (they use avocado meat which is not toxic, not skin or leaves that are toxic...mentioned in the link), as avocados are rich in vitamins C, A, and E. But after doing some more reading (the last 2 links), I'm looking at the Blue Buffalo Wilderness.
Coupled with the dry dog food (which will be rehydrated, excess water squeezed out, and chopped in the food processor) will be chopped butternut squash and carrots to facilitate the non-toxic intake of vitamin A in beta-carotene form, and also processed with some other goodies.
The other goodies...I'm looking at adjusting my supplements. I've not really been sold on a calcium supplement since I used up the last of that no-name, off brand calcium powder I mentioned at the beginning of this post. I've tried Rep-Cal and Miner-All. I'm looking at going back to Miner-All (both indoor and outdoor as I have both diurnal and nocturnal lizard species in my collection), but additionally I'm looking at using Sticky Tongue Farm's Vit-All. Stealing a play from Jeff Lemm of San Diego Zoo (those that don't know Jeff, he was the one that formulated the (in)famous turkey diet), I plan to mix the Vit-All with my rehydrated dog food, butternut squash, carrots, and Omega One fish flakes. I say stealing as Jeff used crushed centrum tablets within the turkey diet mixture to provide the necessary multi-vitamin load. The last ingredient I plan to add to the mix is pure spirulina. Spirulina is a blue green micro algae containing protein, chlorophyll, vitamin B-12, beta-carotene and many other naturally occurring nutrients.
The end idea(s) behind all this thinking are, hopefully, nutritionally balanced crickets via gut-loading, and thusly overall improved dietary health of breeding geckos, up to and including egg production, and additional protein percentage content added to the crickets for better growth potential in hatchling leopard geckos which translates to getting them to larger prey items sooner.
Part of my researching lead me to this DIY fish food article: DIY Frozen Fish Food. It's just some additional reading.
If you made it all the way through this thankfully I don't have to be to work in 2.5 hours!
Thoughts, opinions, rants, raves welcome....
That said, this posting stems off of an earlier thread (Poll: Mealworms or Crickets?) within this sub-forum in which I posted.
I'll quote user Jenna4Herps post (post #20) of some feeder insect nutrition analysis and my post (post #22)
I use crickets as a staple diet with added variety 1-2 days a week of various worms. Crickets are a pain to deal with and yes, they smell, but overall they have a lower fat content and higher protein level.
Here are some stats for the various live feeders for those who are interested:
%kcal
Silkworm
Fat 43
Calcium 0.5
Phosphorus 0.6
Protein 54
Mealworm
Fat 60
Calcium 0.1
Phosphorus 1.2
Protein 37
Waxworm
Fat 73
Calcium 0.1
Phosphorus 0.9
Protein 27
Butterworm
Fat 73
Calcium Highest
Phosphorus 0.9
Protein 27
Cricket
Fat 44
Calcium 0.2
Phosphorus 2.6
Protein 50
Silkworms are definitely the most nutritious of the 5 listed above, but are expensive if you have a lot of reptiles to feed. It is nice to add silkworms to their diet once or twice a week, especially for females during egg laying since silkworms are high in calcium intake without the high fat level like butterworms.
One thing to note is that the insects you feed is only as good as what you actually feed the insects (gut-loading). If you don't feed your crickets/worms nutritional food such as various vegetables/fruits and/or pre-made gutload powder, then what you are feeding your reptiles is basically low in nutritional value.
Be careful with some of the worms, as worms can cause obesity if fed too generously and too often :main_yes:. Crickets are generally safer to prevent overweight reptiles & higher in protein as well.
Another tip - if you are worried about your leo's getting bit by stray worms and crickets, drop a baby carrot in their habitat. Not only does it provide some food for a stray insect to eat, but it also is a good source of Vitamin A too.I have a baby carrot in all my baby chameleon and leopard gecko homes.
In the past the dog food in my list above was typically a cheaper brand (ol' roy) of a puppy formulation. I opted for puppy due to the increased protein matter percentage. However, as I stated, my current job got me to thinking about quality. Quality was something I did think of using a cheaper brand. I mainly went this route due to success a friend of mine had with using either a cheap dog food or trout chow for feeding to his western box turtles (both ornate and desert subspecies) where he mixed it with fruits and veggies too. The idea with the cheaper food was the increased plant filler content, but much of that is typically things like soy meal, wheat-gluten, or corn meal.
Again, as I said I've been re-thinking things as of late. In years passed where I paired geckos (2001-2002, 2006, 2008, 2010) I've not had nearly the results I'd had back in 1997 and 1998. Ignoring genetics as possible, legitimate factors, I figured (assumed?) that my other external issue was nutritionally based. My quoted self above dates back to Jan 2008 and was a mix I'd used from 2001 until then. That list and my offspring results got me questioning what I'd done differently since my first 2 seasons (1997 and 1998) of breeding leopard geckos, particularly since out of 1.5 geckos in 1997 resulted in 90 fertile eggs, no infertiles, and 89 hatchlings (hatchling #90 was full-term dead in egg).
More long windedness...
All that said, I asked my best friend (box turtle guy I mentioned earlier) if he remembered anything I did differently from back in my successful days, particularly since his Ph.D. research at UNM is centralized around nutritional analysis utilizing controlled (captive animals of set, specific diets) and wild desert box turtles and desert tortoises. However, his research pertains to stable isotopes in understanding climactic conditions (I'll save the boring details). He recalled 2 things: 1) I used solely potatos or oranges (moisture source) and tetra tropical fish flakes as food for my crickets and 2) my calcium dust was some off-brand reptile product I'd got from the local pet store that for the life of us we can't remember what it is but it was not one of the commonly used brands of today or years past.
Presently my "gut-loading" consists of passing butternut squash and carrots through a food processor, chopping them into finely minced pieces and feeding Omega One Super Color fish flakes. Crickets are then either dusted with Rep-Cal Brand Herptivite or Calcium with Vit D3. This (the gut-loading) started after last season, where I had one of the worst production seasons since 2002; I only got 4 offspring out of 2 pairings that yielded only 10 eggs - ouch! Sadly, 2002 saw my geckos yield over 200 eggs out of 40 breeders but with many infertile eggs and some developmental deformities (a few twinned embryos where the twins didn't cleave, resulting in siamese twinning up to eyelid deformities [eye development is linked to vitamin a]).
I keep rambling and not getting to where I'm going with this...
So if you've made it this far, all the above rolling through my head has me working on this next concoction. I know that some of the more "dedicated" fish keepers make their own foods to avoid unnecessary fillers. And we also know Allen Repashy has his line of prepared foods. But I've always been one to kind of do-it-myself.
Currently I'm torn for my dog food route. My options are down to Blue Buffalo's Wilderness line (chicken flavor) or AvoDerm's Natural Puppy formulation, based upon their respective dashboard content analysis (protein, fat, and total carbohydrate percentages) and ingredients. Originally I was leaning towards AvoDerm due to its use of avocados (they use avocado meat which is not toxic, not skin or leaves that are toxic...mentioned in the link), as avocados are rich in vitamins C, A, and E. But after doing some more reading (the last 2 links), I'm looking at the Blue Buffalo Wilderness.
Coupled with the dry dog food (which will be rehydrated, excess water squeezed out, and chopped in the food processor) will be chopped butternut squash and carrots to facilitate the non-toxic intake of vitamin A in beta-carotene form, and also processed with some other goodies.
The other goodies...I'm looking at adjusting my supplements. I've not really been sold on a calcium supplement since I used up the last of that no-name, off brand calcium powder I mentioned at the beginning of this post. I've tried Rep-Cal and Miner-All. I'm looking at going back to Miner-All (both indoor and outdoor as I have both diurnal and nocturnal lizard species in my collection), but additionally I'm looking at using Sticky Tongue Farm's Vit-All. Stealing a play from Jeff Lemm of San Diego Zoo (those that don't know Jeff, he was the one that formulated the (in)famous turkey diet), I plan to mix the Vit-All with my rehydrated dog food, butternut squash, carrots, and Omega One fish flakes. I say stealing as Jeff used crushed centrum tablets within the turkey diet mixture to provide the necessary multi-vitamin load. The last ingredient I plan to add to the mix is pure spirulina. Spirulina is a blue green micro algae containing protein, chlorophyll, vitamin B-12, beta-carotene and many other naturally occurring nutrients.
The end idea(s) behind all this thinking are, hopefully, nutritionally balanced crickets via gut-loading, and thusly overall improved dietary health of breeding geckos, up to and including egg production, and additional protein percentage content added to the crickets for better growth potential in hatchling leopard geckos which translates to getting them to larger prey items sooner.
Part of my researching lead me to this DIY fish food article: DIY Frozen Fish Food. It's just some additional reading.
If you made it all the way through this thankfully I don't have to be to work in 2.5 hours!
Thoughts, opinions, rants, raves welcome....
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