Do I have a Gary Coleman or is there something wrong?

[Pookachu]

As I mentioned in my other post I have several bearded dragons. The two adults and three siblings. Of those three 2 are thriving but one just does not want to grow and I have no idea whats going on.

All beardies have their own tanks and have identical setup's and feedings. Well actually the one in question I have been feeding more phoenix worms and salad while the rest get phoenix worms, roaches, crickets, supers, and salad.

I have posted this as well in a bearded dragon forums and still really do not have an answer. I am going to repost what I posted there in here as it gives pretty much all info on my setups.


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[Pookachu]

This is what i posted a few weeks back on the beardie forums

I have 3 dragons all in their own enclosures and approximately the same age (I believe they are all from the same batch). They are all about 4 1/2 months now and I recently switched their lighting from a fluorescent+Basking bulb (48" Reptisun 10.0 + 150 watt basking bulb [I think it's T-Rex]) setup to a MVB (T Rex 100 watt flood active UV heat bulb).

NOTE: Each enclosure is setup exactly the same and each dragon has been fed the same exact thing.

Issue 2) The 3 dragons are all of the same age (bought from the same breeder and believed to be same clutch), and each have had identical feeding and setups. The problem I have that all 3 are of different sizes. I didn't measure them but if I had to guess off hand one is about 14", 12" (with a tail nip), and one hasn't seemed to grow at all since I've got them (about 4 - 5").

The two larger ones seem to be thriving without issues, both have huge appetites, drink water on their own from a bowl, and seem to be growing without issues.

The little just seems to have problems.

1. He simply does not grow, he maybe grew about an inch or half inch over the course of 2 months.
2. He rarely eats on his own, When dropping feeders into his tank I give him a chance to try to eat on his own. Maybe once a week he will eat 3 small crickets/dubia roach (of which makes me really happy to see him do that) but otherwise he wont eat. But he will eat anything I put in his mouth for him (usually up to about 20 at a time before he starts to spit them out). He has never eaten any veggies on his own, but eat a little if I feed it to him.
3. Seems to have a neurological issue maybe? or maybe he has an equilibrium problem? most of the time he tilts his head to the side and looks up and his balance is absolutely horrible.
   There was also one instance where his body was twitching anytime he was stimulated to move but it seemed to have gone away after a long bath.
4. He seems to run on either an on/off switch. Either he is off the walls hyper and is running all over the place, platform diving off perches, or he is completely still with eyes closed (several times I thought he might have been dead).

A friend of mine suggested that he may be a runt and regardless of what I do, he will always be small and have problems. For the most part as far as an explanation goes that makes sense to me, but, I am no reptile expert so I can't say.

When I first got those 3 dragons I took them to a vet with me during my regular checkup's for my leopard gecko's. Had them checked out and a fecal done and everything looked good. But, I did not ask to have testing done for the adeno virus (was not aware of it at the time) and after reading a little bit here and there I wonder if it is possible he may have that?

I am at a loss on how to get this guy to grow and be a little more self sufficient. As of right now I have to hand feed him everything.

NOTE: I filled out the questionnaire below. The same applies to all three with the exception where I normally dust feeders everyday with vitamins and every other day with calcium, for the little one I dust 2/3 of his food with vitamins and 1/3 with calcium with every other day with mostly calcium.

How old is your dragon?
approximately 4 1/2 months
How long have you had your dragon?
3 1/2 months
How long is your dragon?
approximately 14", 12", and 5"
What is the sex of your dragon?
not sure but im guessing two larger ones are females, little one is male
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in?
each are in a 50 gallon tank
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank?
12" tile slates
Do you use UVB lights?
Currently have T Rex 100 watt flood active UV MVB heat bulb (previously on 48" Reptisun 10.0 fluorescent with 150 watt basking bulb)
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb?
MVB (No longer used, but still have the fluorescent and basking bulb)
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)?
100 watt T Rex Flood
How old is your UVB bulb?
about 4 weeks
How close can your dragon get to the UVB?
Basking platform allows dragons to get as close as 12" and as low as 18"
Do you use a separate basking bulb?
Yes
What kind and what is the wattage?
75 Watt
What are the basking temps?
110 - 112
What is the cool side temp?
low 80's
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun?
Digital Therm with wire
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps?
on basking platform surface
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad?
no
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific:
Primarily phoenix worms, small crickets and nymph dubia roaches, a salad consisting of Collard greens, kale, escarole, mango, and carrots is offered (but they rarely touch it)
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)?
@ 07:30 before I goto work I place about 20 phoenix worms, 10 roaches/crickets and some salad, @ 18:00 feed about 60 phoenix worms, 30-50 crickets/roaches with salad
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc?
Crickets/Roaches gutload with Flukers cricket gut load, and vegetables (Carrots, potato, collard green, escarole)
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)?
How many days a week do you use each of them? Multivitamins (Vionate) about 4 times a week, Jurrasical Calcium 3-4 times a week
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)?
Yes, most of the time solid and looks to be fully digested
Do you bath your dragon? How often?
every other day (the little one gets everyday)
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath?
Water dish
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon?
No
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done?
First month they got one. All were clean and healthy. No parasites. Did not ask to check for adeno (was not aware of it at the time)

 

[Pookachu]

Here are some pics for comparison

NOTE: You can see in a lot of the pics he keeps tilting his head to the side.









First two pics are from what I believe are the girls, last one is the non-growing one that I believe to be the guy

 

[Pookachu]

OH, and just in case Gary Coleman is a member on this forums. If you are and you are offended by my title send me a PM and I will gladly change it.

 

[T&KBrouse]

I may be going out on a limb here and I don't want you to panic, but have you had him tested for Adenovirus?

 

[T&KBrouse]

Duh... Just noticed you last answered question from your first post.:main_rolleyes:
That would be the main one I would try to rule out, though. Stunted growth and head tilting are symptoms.

 

[Pookachu]

Thanks for the response T&K.

I copied and pasted what I has posted in last time a few weeks ago and should have updated it.

To answer your question, the answer is yes. I had them all tested, the vet took i think was a fecal and sent it someplace .. i think he said something about lou ann miller or something like that. Anyways, they all came back negative. The vet though said that it isnt 100% and I should get them tested again in a couple months.

He mentioned that there is also another test for adeno but it costs a lot more I think he said PCR .. i might be getting the names or acronyms mixed up. I didn't get him tested for that one.

The vet did some other test as well i forgot what it was called but it had something to do with the calcium absorption rate and the vet said it was fine.

- - -

So I really am at a loss here and how to resolve this. I dont think he's suffering or in pain or anything but I really would like to see him grow and be a little more self sufficient.

Also, this might sound a little selfish ... I mean, I dont mind having to hand feed him and such and for the time being and outside of the balance thing (which isnt as bad as it used to be) he is pretty active nowadays.

Im concerned that because he is so dependent on me (more than normal) I feel like I am going to be in a tough situation when the time comes where I have to travel (either due to work or my upcoming wedding/honeymoon).

Outside of my fiance ... everyone else I know is repulsed at the idea of having to hand feed a reptile yet alone touch bugs.

 

[T&KBrouse]

Well they just don't know what fun is, then. My beardie is hand fed and spoon fed and he's healthy as a horse...
Spoiled rotten to the core, but healthy as a horse! :main_yes:

So do you think he really could be just an underdeveloped runt? (I've had somewhat similar problems with premie boas.)

 

[fallen_angel]

We have something similar, one of our beardies is underdeveloped. He grew to a decent size, but still isn't quite as big as he should be.

 

[Pookachu]

Again, thank you guys for your input...

Yeah, my unprofessional opinion is pointing towards him being a runt from his litter. For the time being I really do not know what more I can do as far as testing or treatment so I guess it will just be how it is for the time being.

Of all the beardies he is my favorite and I do enjoy spending the time hand feeding as he does not get fussy about it all (unlike his siblings, but then again they dont need to be handfed either).

I guess we'll see how things turn out as he get's older. Speaking of which, then again he might be too small or too young to accurately sex... I have been under the assumption that the 2 bigger ones are girls and the little one is a male.

On the bottom row is pics of their tail/vent area. Starting from the left, the first two are what is believe to be the girls, and the last one on the right is the little fella which I am thinking to be a male. What do you guys think?

 

[Baker14]

Seeing as you seem to be taking good care of all of your dragons, have had them tested, looked at, I would presume he is just the runt of the clutch. If he is eating regularly, and shows no signs of stress or sickness, I think that he will be fine, small, but fine.

 

[Pookachu]

Good news!

For the first time ever since I have owned him (as of late January) the little one (aka Terrence, aka Mr. Blueberry, aka Terry The Berry) ate an entire feeding on his own last night.

I dropped in a plate of veggies and another of about 50 phoenix worms and was going to start hand feeding him but got called away for a few minutes by the fiance for something.

I came back and when I got to his tank he jumped down from his basking spot, walked up to the dish, then looked at me, looked at worm, looked at me, shook head, ate worm.

I sat there for a sec to watch him a bit longer. The whole process started up again. Looked at me, looked at worm, looked at me, shook head, ate worm.

I thought the looking away thing was weird so just to see if he was just looking that direction I moved to the other side of the tank and sure enough this time he looked at me from teh other direction and ate.

Anyways, long story short, he finished almost the entire dish on his own which is a lot more than i have ever seen him do.

Though I am already kinda missing hand feeding him, this does make me feel better about his ability to be a little more self sufficient. lets hope he keeps it up.

 

[T&KBrouse]

Thats wonderful!!
Congratulations!

 

[Fanner]

I'm piping in late here ~ sounds promising to me! I have a beardie that is now probably about 8 months old who I was hand feeding since January. I know what you mean about the possible inconvenience of it so hopefully the little guy is now coming around for you!

 

[Pookachu]

Thanks!

Since then he has been doing pretty well with helping himself to phoenix worms. last night I decided to give dusted crickets a shot and sure enough he not only chased them, but actually caught and ate 25 crickets on his own.

 

[Fanner]

Wow, what a relief! Maybe he will be an "Andre the Giant" instead of a Gary Coleman :main_laugh: