Enigma problems

[PhoenixCoconut]

Hi I know enigmas have the neurological problems but does it hurt them, because I like enigmas but don't want to have to cull them ?:main_huh:

 

[endrien]

Hi I know enigmas have the neurological problems but does it hurt them, because I like enigmas but don't want to have to cull them ?:main_huh:

There is no real way to know the exact effects on them, but the general idea is that if the syndrome effects the quality of life too much, culling is necessary. It is the reason why many no longer deal with enigmas, too much culling and hard emotionally.
I personally don't think it is right to breed them, regardless of how "Little" the syndrome they have...they still have it.

 

[leezard]

I don't think anyone should breed them, it is a proven quality of life problem and it makes no sense to knowingly propagate a potential harmful (to the reptile) trait just because they look nice.

(is that better Lillth?) Since no one seems to know what it really is.

 

[PhoenixCoconut]

Ya I know its sad because they have such beautiful colors! (I might want one for a pet though

 

[lillith]

I don't think anyone should breed them, it is a proven neurological problem and it makes no sense to knowingly propagate a potential harmful (to the reptile) trait just because they look nice.

Actually, as far as I know we're just going off of educated conjecture.
Texas A&M was doing a study on them awhile ago, but I have yet to see any publications on the subject.

It could also be inner ear/vertigo issues causing it, or something in the way their body metabolizes things that causes the symptoms.

My suspicions are that it does indeed have a neurological component, but you cannot make a blanket statement like the one you just did - without citing some kind of reference - as a fact. Because it isn't a fact, it's a conjecture. A reasonable guess.

I personally like mine. I do detest culling, and I am actively trying to breed the enigma out of my lines that have the traits I'm interested in propagating. I will, however, continue to breed them for now. Because the ones that are non-symptomatic are my friendliest geckos. They do seek out interaction. I think that makes them worthwhile.

If I were to step into anthropomorhizing completely, I would say that they are the mad geniuses of the leo world.

 

[leezard]

It is my opinion and I will stick to it, you should not be breeding a known harmful trait because it looks pretty sorry but it's wrong.

 

[artes]

I agree with Lillith. Enigmas are the friendlist geckos I've ever encountered. I wouldn't breed them, but that's because I do not breed geckos, so ha. Lillith is also right in that there is no -proof- that it is neurological. Maybe they have depth perception issues, or maybe they just get bored easily so they walk in a circle to amuse themselves (what, you've never seen a kid spin in a circle til they fell over for fun?). Until there is proof that there is neurological harm in breeding them, I say it should be up to the individual breeders what they want to do. I think they make awesome pets - Snickers does seem to seek out pets and kisses from me (I kiss on top of the head so I don't lose a lip though).

 

[lillith]

It is my opinion and I will stick to it, you should not be breeding a known harmful trait because it looks pretty sorry but it's wrong.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.
But, having an opinion doesn't mean you get to tell me I "should" anything.

Should we stop breeding all dogs that are known to have hip dysplasia?
What about factory farmed chicken that are bred to grow meat faster than their legs have strength to hold themselves up?

You may have your opinion, and state it as such.
You may state facts, and cite them as such.

But neither entitles you to lecture me.
I'm staying out of this thread, now.

 

[leezard]

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.
But, having an opinion doesn't mean you get to tell me I "should" anything.

Should we stop breeding all dogs that are known to have hip dysplasia?
What about factory farmed chicken that are bred to grow meat faster than their legs have strength to hold themselves up?

You may have your opinion, and state it as such.
You may state facts, and cite them as such.

But neither entitles you to lecture me.
I'm staying out of this thread, now.

Where did I ever tell you what you should do?

I will say it one more time as this person asked for opinions it is MY OPINION. I corrected the earlier statement that seemed to get you so upset. No wonder so few people are on this site when they get attacked for giving an opinion. WOW.

 

[lillith]

you should not be

that part.

I took it that you meant I, personally, should not breed enigmas.
I am sorry if I misinterpreted that.

Perhaps use the word "breeders" or "one" instead of "you"?

 

[leezard]

that part.

I took it that you meant I, personally, should not breed enigmas.
I am sorry if I misinterpreted that.

Perhaps use the word "breeders" or "one" instead of "you"?

No, it was not directed at you. It was meant in a much broader sense.

 

[The Gecko Person]

If you breed an animal, KNOWING it will have problems, most breeders will 'cull' the most problematic animals. It should not be an opinion. It is wrong for people to breed animals, knowing that ALL enigmas have the problem. They ALL do, just varying levels. There is always a high chance of making a whole clutch of screwed up animals.
Now switch a few letters. Change C U to K I.
C U lled
K I lled
You magically have a new word! It even means the same! I don't think responsible or 'good' breeders would kill animals that they produced, knowing that they would have problems.
Some people say 'there is no alternative to enigmas'. Of course there is not. People just have a lack of self control to tell themselves no to buying a certain morph, just because they have the money.

 

[The Gecko Person]

There is a similar problem with spider ball pythons. People complained to me on those forums because I wrote the same thing for that morph of snake.

 

[PhoenixCoconut]

Thank every one!

 

[fl_orchidslave]

The only way to ever know if the undesirable traits can be bred out is to try to breed it out. There are a number of very experienced breeders currently working with these, and aggressively cull any bad seeds. I feel that if a person chooses to work with such a high risk project, it's their responsibility to make those judgement calls. It can be disappointing and heartbreaking, it's never easy to cull a hatchling, and a lot of folks cannot do it. IMO people should not work with enigmas unless they can bear the total responsibility. And that doesn't mean keeping every baby! Enigmas make wonderful pets for someone who understands their quirks and doesn't panic every time something strange happens. Nothing wrong with having a pet only gecko and not breeding it

 

[Owens]

It's like any animal that is currently being bred with known issues. My opinion would be to do what you as an individual things is right, at the end of the day your the one that has to live with your choices

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

Well MY opinion on this subject is that I believe that enigmas don't feel pain from the enigma syndrome because if they did feel pain then they would be stressed or worse and would probably stop eating and die. As for breeding them I would not do it only because i believe that you cant breed the enigma out of the enigma since people have been breeding them for years and that the "good" enigmas create some bad ones as well so you never know. Now enigmas are one of my favorite morphs and i really like the one i own because they are some really nice looking animals and so friendly, but I dont see myself culling innocent lives that i helped bring into this world, but these are only my thoughts I cant really proof or disproof that the enigma syndrome can be bred out.

 

[lillith]

I dunno, since 2006...5 years and/or 5 generations...either way, that's not terribly long to be working on something from a genetic standpoint.

It took 9 generations for the silver fox domestication project in Russia to start having effects. And it took 13 to notice phenotypical differences. It's been going on since the 1950s, and there was an update on it in National Geopgraphic recently.

 

[PhoenixCoconut]

Well MY opinion on this subject is that I believe that enigmas don't feel pain from the enigma syndrome because if they did feel pain then they would be stressed or worse and would probably stop eating and die. As for breeding them I would not do it only because i believe that you cant breed the enigma out of the enigma since people have been breeding them for years and that the "good" enigmas create some bad ones as well so you never know. Now enigmas are one of my favorite morphs and i really like the one i own because they are some really nice looking animals and so friendly, but I dont see myself culling innocent lives that i helped bring into this world, but these are only my thoughts I cant really proof or disproof that the enigma syndrome can be bred out.

I did not think it hurts them either I just think it might be extra work. Exactly what I think I don't want to cull these innocent animals because.................... /\
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[The Gecko Person]

It's like any animal that is currently being bred with known issues. My opinion would be to do what you as an individual things is right, at the end of the day your the one that has to live with your choices

Yes, YOU live with your choices. The animal does too. And some people make stupid choices, like breeding animals when they know they might kill the hatchlings.

Well MY opinion on this subject is that I believe that enigmas don't feel pain from the enigma syndrome because if they did feel pain then they would be stressed or worse and would probably stop eating and die. As for breeding them I would not do it only because i believe that you cant breed the enigma out of the enigma since people have been breeding them for years and that the "good" enigmas create some bad ones as well so you never know. Now enigmas are one of my favorite morphs and i really like the one i own because they are some really nice looking animals and so friendly, but I dont see myself culling innocent lives that i helped bring into this world, but these are only my thoughts I cant really proof or disproof that the enigma syndrome can be bred out.

It's not pain, but I'm sure they aren't happy with it. Try spinning around or stargazing the same way they do for a few minutes. You even get to do it voluntarily. They can't control it.
Also, they do try to eat. They can't even aim sometimes though.