enigma x enigma

[rickmoss95]

i was wondering if anyone has done this breeding? ...and if neither of the parents showed ANY (none) of the enigma syndrome, would there be less likely chances of the babies showing signs? i am considering putting my red stripe enigma to my red eyed enigma(bell), but i have not read anything on breeding enigma to enigma. i have heard of some people doing it, and have heard others are against it...i am just wondering for myself. both parents show NO enigma syndrom at all, they also both come from the urban gecko...

 

[lillith]

I did an enigma x enigma earlier this year, with two unrelated, non-symptomatic parents. This was a first-time breeding for the dam, and she produced four viable eggs, two slugs. All of the offspring were enigmas, which means I didn't get the non-enigma albino I wanted.

Two offspring came out completely non-symptomatic, one had slight morphological imperfections, and the last one was very tiny (2g hatchling) and definitely does the enigma pirouette. I have had enigmas "outgrow" their symptoms before; I have also had to cull failure-to-thrive enigmas. I am waiting to see which category my last little hatch is in. So far, the circling is lessening, and it deals with handling very well, but I know these things can go both ways at any time.

It really is a luck-of-the-draw grab bag, with a high possibility that something will have to be culled. The only reason I did it was because my alternate male for my Bell project died while being watched by a friend. I may attempt enigma x enigma again, but only very carefully and not in a linebred fashion.

This was just my experience. I know others have done this, some with issues and some without. It is generally frowned upon if you can get the same results in your project from a different pairing.

 

[rickmoss95]

these two enigmas are not related at all. thanks for your input...i still am not sure if i wanna do this, maybe i will just buy a bell male and put him with my red eye

 

[lillith]

I will post some pics later, but I have to head off to an appt. at the moment...

 

[ElapidSVT]

all enigmas are derived from a single founder animal and are related to some degree.

 

[lillith]

all enigmas are derived from a single founder animal and are related to some degree.

Well if you want to split hairs, all Tremper albinos are related to some degree, as are all Rainwaters to a degree, and all Bells to a degree. All recessive trait homozygous animals are related to a degree. One could argue that all the captivebred leopard geckos stateside are related to a degree, since we can no longer directly import wild caught specimens. There are a few "wild type" bloodlines around but outside of the occasional European import, no new blood is coming in.

What I meant was that the 2008 dam I used was obtained from one breeder, and the 2009 sire I used, his 2008 sire I acquired from someone else. So they do not share any common ancestry that I am aware of. I would not have done this breeding if my other het Bell male hadn't been lost to me. I may do another enigma x enigma breeding in the future, but probably not in a linebred manner.

So, here are the pictures I promised:

CS-01

As you can see, her right humerus is shorter than her left. What you can't see is the dewlap flap of skin under her chin. She doesn't spin, she feeds well, she will be going to live out her life with my sister as a pet in a few months.

CS-02

This guy is my holdback, he is totally normal. I'm actually very proud of him. I will be breeding him to a tangerine and then those offspring to each other. I will have non-enigma hybinos (these are Bell sunglows) yet!

CS-03

This fella is my favorite, personality-wise...he's soooo friendly! He behaves completely normally as well, except he sometimes tries to "pounce" at me when I take him out. I think he associates my face with food. I'm trying to spend more time handling him when it isn't dinnertime, so he learns the difference. I don't need him for any of my projects, but I want to wait until he's bigger before I consider selling him.

CS-04

As you can see, this one is ridiculously cute, but...this is my little problem child. It definitely does the enigma pirouette. I have it up to 4g, now. I am taking a wait-and-see approach: if the spinning worsens, it has recurring shedding issues, if it fails to feed and thrive, I will cull it. It deals with being handled well, and feeds well. Time will tell.

I'm just putting this out there for everyone to see.

 

[rickmoss95]

thank you Janece!those are beautiful leopards! maybe i should have chosen my words more wisely, as i know that they have some founding blood way in the past that are probably related, but they are so far outcrossed that it is not an issue...your right about splitting hairs, but im not going to be rediculous about it! just like all these corn snake people that argue amongst each other about the intergrades and hybrids(not calling corn snake people stupid,or anything, just argiung about something so rediculous, is stupid)...they think it is wrong to hybridize or intrgrade, and say all of thier animals are "pure"...how the heck do they really KNOW they are "pure"??? corn snakes have been bred for so long, you would have to actually catch wild caught founding stock to make that claim, and there is still a possibility of natural intergration. no offence to you Rob, as i agree to your statement, but they are far off enough in outcrossing for how ever many years from the original enigma, i feel saying they are not related is fair. and ive been wondering for a while about your screen name, is that implying to the FORD Mustang COBRA??? ...cobras are elapids, and SVT(special vehicle team) is the special branch of Ford that builds Cobras, and used to build the Lightning, and a few other special Ford offerings...i have an electric green '99 Cobra with 17,000 miles on it! you have one?(if the name implies what i think it does) i am the biggest FORD and Mustang head! lol

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

I had read somewhere that breeding enigma with an enigma was pointless because the mixture of the gene was fatal......??

 

[ElapidSVT]

most of our leos are, indeed, related.

check those links, rick.
http://home.usamedia.tv/robwegner/images/desertfronnt.jpg
http://home.usamedia.tv/robwegner/images/cobra.jpg
11.8@123mph

 

[rickmoss95]

nice! i love it rob! ill have to get ya some pics of mine. i dont have any on my computer yet, ill get some on here though and show it to ya. that alone says your a cool ass dude to me! mustang guys, well..they just have it!

 

[lillith]

I had read somewhere that breeding enigma with an enigma was pointless because the mixture of the gene was fatal......??

From what I remember in the original debates, it was speculated that if there were a 2-copy version of the enigma trait (a "super enigma" if you will), it might result in a larger proportion of dead-in-egg/incompatible-with-life embryos. A lot of people had a lot of different results.

But there is no way to visually determine whether you have a 1-copy or 2-copy enigma. It was also speculated that the 2-copy enigmas might be the ones with the worst syndrome symptoms.

But until some geneticist decides to spend time running the entire leo genome and ID'ing all the genes, alleles, components, etc.; we probably won't know what exactly the deal is with enigmas. These are some of the reasons an enigma x enigma breeding is discouraged. I knew I was taking a calculated risk when I did it. And while I'm really glad things turned out mostly okay, I still have a possible cull on my hands. So, there's my example.