Feeder Advice

[Laura Lehr]

Hi everyone,

Ok, so my well meaning boyfriend decided to surprise me with a baby leo the other day (he knew I was looking into getting one.) I was by no means prepared but gathered the basics for her (have since purchased more items online at better prices) including a cup of mini mealworms. This is what she has been eating so far.

I was hoping to get advice about other feeders. I had a bearded dragon when I was younger and I fed her a mix of crickets, phoenix worms, silkworms, butterworms and hornworms (she loved hornworms so much! lol). Would these feeders all be acceptable for a baby leo (appropriately sized of course!).

Does anyone have any recommendation on where I can buy a variety of worms at a cheap price?

I live on Long Island, NY and the store I used to go to for worms is no longer open. I was browsing some of the sites I used to buy in bulk from but everything seems so expensive.

The mealworms from +++++ are nice and cheap- but I get nervous as I hear talk of impaction and I remember they were a big no no for beardies. Are they pretty much considered safe for leos? Also, on the subject of gutloading mealies- should I leave them out of the fridge to gutload them? Do I leave them out and let them eat for say, 24 hours and then put them back in the fridge? Are the minis a good size for a young leo? They are much skinnier than the space between her eyes- I feel like she could eat larger ones but these were the ones the guy at +++++ suggested when I compared her, size wise, to the leos he had at the store. She is about the same size as his and he says he gives them the minis.

I am hopefully gonna pick up some crickets today- I need to try and get a kricket keeper- but im really not excited about keeping crickets again. They are so gross (I feel like they are just dirty...no matter how hard I tried to keep everything clean, crickets are just dirty lol) and I hated it when I was lose one and it would be hopping around my house! I'd much rather stick to worms and feed an occasional batch of crickets for stimulation and variation.

Anyway, thoughts on feeders, advice and suggestions on where to purchase are MUCH appreciated!

Thank you!

 

[jemjdragon]

Meal worms are fine for leopard geckos. You can gut-load them by feeding them different veggies for water (mine like carrots and potatoes) and by using cricket gut load. When you get meal worms, you should remove them from the sawdust bedding and replace it with dry oatmeal which you have ground up in a food processor. They will "live" longer in the fridge because they are slowed down by the cold. I do not keep mine in the fridge (I get more meal worm deaths in the fridge). Also, because I don't keep mine in the fridge, they do grow and become beetles, which later lay eggs and then I get more meal worms. I actually have a meal worm colony and the only thing I do is change the bedding to new oatmeal once in a while, mix in cricket gut load, add a container of fresh meal worms if the baby meal worms are too small for what I need, remove dead beetles/larva/pupa, and give carrots as moisture/extra vitamin. If you use veggies for nutrition/water for the meal worms, remove the veggies when they start to look old/mold. Mold can kill a whole meal worm colony. Remove old bedding and replace it with fresh bedding when the old bedding is basically eaten, gets moldy, gets smelly, or gets wet. I feed my meal worms from a calcium dish. This is what I mainly feed my current gecko and what I mainly fed my first gecko.

I also use dubia roaches. I do not have a colony and do not plan to have a colony. I only buy them if I see them at reptile shows mainly because I feel my roommates would think I'm crazy if I start ordering roaches and breeding them. I keep them in a plastic cricket container (since I only buy like 40-50 at a time), give them carrots for water, and use the roach chow you usually cant buy with the roaches for gut-load.

My gecko loves silkworms. And they are a good feeder, just hard to raise if you plan on raising them and are expensive. Silkworms are soft so they don't pose a risk of impaction and nutritious.

Butter worms and wax worms are fatty and not nutritious. They should only be fed as a treat. Even then, careful with how many you give as a treat (I give one or two once a week if I have them) because geckos can get addicted to them.

Crickets are fine but need to be gut loaded. You can do this by feeding a mix of veggies and cricket gut load. I use Flukers Cricket Gutload with no problems, just make sure once you open the jar of flukers, to place it in the fridge. I have had grain weevil hatch out in a jar of mine. This is the same gut load I mix into the meal worm bedding. Crickets are not my favorite feeder because they are noisy though and can smell badly.

I have never used horn worms of phoenix worms, so I can't really give you advice on those.

Remember to dust your feeders 1-2 a week with calcium w/D3 and 3 times a week with vitamins. Also leave a bowl/container of calcium without D3 in the tank. Geckos will eat from here if they need extra calcium. Also do not feed any feeders that are bigger than the width between the gecko's eyes (this is mainly for crickets and roaches but cat be applied to other feeders as well). This will reduce your risk of impaction.

Also, you can make cricket gut load if you really want to. Here is a recipe I have been wanting to try: Leopard Gecko Caresheet | The Gecko Spot
I find it easier just to buy gut load in pet stores though. =]

 

[lisa127]

I've never used hornworms either but I'm curious about them. I have used phoenix worms. My gecko ate them well for about two days, and then refused to eat them again.

 

[Laura Lehr]

Meal worms are fine for leopard geckos. You can gut-load them by feeding them different veggies for water (mine like carrots and potatoes) and by using cricket gut load. When you get meal worms, you should remove them from the sawdust bedding and replace it with dry oatmeal which you have ground up in a food processor. They will "live" longer in the fridge because they are slowed down by the cold. I do not keep mine in the fridge (I get more meal worm deaths in the fridge). Also, because I don't keep mine in the fridge, they do grow and become beetles, which later lay eggs and then I get more meal worms. I actually have a meal worm colony and the only thing I do is change the bedding to new oatmeal once in a while, mix in cricket gut load, add a container of fresh meal worms if the baby meal worms are too small for what I need, remove dead beetles/larva/pupa, and give carrots as moisture/extra vitamin. If you use veggies for nutrition/water for the meal worms, remove the veggies when they start to look old/mold. Mold can kill a whole meal worm colony. Remove old bedding and replace it with fresh bedding when the old bedding is basically eaten, gets moldy, gets smelly, or gets wet. I feed my meal worms from a calcium dish. This is what I mainly feed my current gecko and what I mainly fed my first gecko.

I also use dubia roaches. I do not have a colony and do not plan to have a colony. I only buy them if I see them at reptile shows mainly because I feel my roommates would think I'm crazy if I start ordering roaches and breeding them. I keep them in a plastic cricket container (since I only buy like 40-50 at a time), give them carrots for water, and use the roach chow you usually cant buy with the roaches for gut-load.

My gecko loves silkworms. And they are a good feeder, just hard to raise if you plan on raising them and are expensive. Silkworms are soft so they don't pose a risk of impaction and nutritious.

Butter worms and wax worms are fatty and not nutritious. They should only be fed as a treat. Even then, careful with how many you give as a treat (I give one or two once a week if I have them) because geckos can get addicted to them.

Crickets are fine but need to be gut loaded. You can do this by feeding a mix of veggies and cricket gut load. I use Flukers Cricket Gutload with no problems, just make sure once you open the jar of flukers, to place it in the fridge. I have had grain weevil hatch out in a jar of mine. This is the same gut load I mix into the meal worm bedding. Crickets are not my favorite feeder because they are noisy though and can smell badly.

I have never used horn worms of phoenix worms, so I can't really give you advice on those.

Remember to dust your feeders 1-2 a week with calcium w/D3 and 3 times a week with vitamins. Also leave a bowl/container of calcium without D3 in the tank. Geckos will eat from here if they need extra calcium. Also do not feed any feeders that are bigger than the width between the gecko's eyes (this is mainly for crickets and roaches but cat be applied to other feeders as well). This will reduce your risk of impaction.

Also, you can make cricket gut load if you really want to. Here is a recipe I have been wanting to try: Leopard Gecko Caresheet | The Gecko Spot
I find it easier just to buy gut load in pet stores though. =]

Thank you so much for all the info! I have a couple more questions if you don't mind!

When raising meal worms- do the beetles fly? I mean, I wouldn't want beetles getting lose and flying around my house. :/

Also, can a leopard gecko eat the beetles? Or just the meal worms?

What kind of container do you keep them in? Also, how do you move the meal worms into the oatmeal without losing them? lol

Also, when checking the size of foods, in regards to worms, it's the thickness of the worm, not the length that you would look at, right? I remember wondering that with my beardie but I figured it had to be thickness since the average worm feeder for a beardie is much longer than the space between the eyes. Just figured I would double check. lol

I wish the reptile store near me was still open- it was nice to be able to go in and buy different worms to try without worrying about shipping. I used to get hornworms, butter worms and phoenix worms from them- it was great. The hornworms ended up being my beardies fav- and it was cool cause they grew SO huge (if you provide enough food) that one or two was a satisfying meal!

I'd like to try phoenix worms with my leo (they are naturally VERY high in calcium) but I keep hearing that leos dont seem to like them as much. I def don't wanna buy a bulk order unless I see if she will eat them. On another note- I remember one time, with my beardie, where a phoenix worm turned into a black solider fly- I let it loose in her tank and watched her leap around trying to catch it. It was great! SHe had so much fun and got a totally different kind of bug than she had ever had! lol

 

[Laura Lehr]

I've never used hornworms either but I'm curious about them. I have used phoenix worms. My gecko ate them well for about two days, and then refused to eat them again.

Man- I keep hearing so many negative things about leos not liking phoenix worms. Too bad- they were my beardies fav for a really long time (her whole baby/adolescence period) and she thrived on them. She prefered hornworms when she got older.

I know for beardies, hornworms are considered a good feeder. Im not sure about for leos as a staple- but they are fun to try either way. For a leo though, I would def get the set of like, 25 worms which includes food to grow them to 1.5 inches in length, not the one with less worms but more food. That grows SUPER HUGE worms....I mean HUGE. The average big ones were the thickness of the space between my beardies eyes and I think they could get bigger.

It's fun to watch, they come as these tiny, skinny little worms and quickly grow. I wanna try them one of these days for my leo!

 

[jemjdragon]

Beetles have wings and that being said, should have the ability to fly, however, I have never had the beetles fly in my colony and I have had my colony for about 4-5 years. Only time I have had beetles escape was when I put too much oatmeal into their container or when I was moving and the oatmeal in the car ride made a kind of ramp and 25% of my beetles escaped in my car, you will see what I mean when I post pictures of my set up. BUT I do not have any escaping beetles normally. They can not climb glass of plastic that is smooth. I have heard people do feed meal worm beetles to leopard geckos, but to be honest, they have a very hard shell and I do not think they have as much nutrition. I have fed the pupa from the meal worms to my geckos.

As for containers, it is a matter of preference. I used to use old butter/sour cream containers that I washed and poked holes through the top. Some people use plastic shoe boxes with hold in the top. You can glue window screen around/over the holes if you are really worried about escaping beetles. I use a three drawer method. I separate the pupa once the meal worms become them from the worms and beetles because they will eat the pupa. When beetles hatch, I separate them into a different container. Some people keep pupa, beetles, and worms together. Some people keep beetles and worms together. As for sizing meal worms. I like to imagine that if they were tiny tiny snakes, and they coiled up into a spiral, if that spiral could fit between the gecko's eyes, then the gecko can eat them.
LOTS OF PICTURES, SORRY THAT SOME OF THEM ARE REALLY BLURRY!
Here's my container:

First Drawer With Worms:

Second with Beetles: (If I fill the drawer too much, so that there is enough room for the beetle to grab the lip of the drawer, then they escape. I fill it only 1/4 high with ground oatmeal to prevent this)

Third with Pupa: (I don't have any pupa right now)

Different worm sizes based on how old they are compared with my thumb: The tiny tiny one on top is a bit bigger than a hatching worm. The big worm to the right is a ~month old, the one to the left is ~2 weeks old, and the one on the bottom is ~3 weeks old. If it is cold they grow slower, if it is warm they grow faster. Its kinda cold where I live right now.

A beetle compared with my thumb:

A meal worm with one that just molted:

I bought this at +++++. It is a mesh thing that you can use to separate beetles and big worms from the bedding.

You just scoop:

An shake and you'll be left with worms, beetles, and large pieces of bedding that cant fit through the holes.

Also how I keep my roaches:

My largest roach currently:

My largest roach with a few of my small roaches: (one got stuck on his back. he's not dead. I flipped him over and how hes fine until Mift get him for dinner)

You can also use your fingers to separate the meal worms. Very time consuming but I still do this from time to time. It lets me make sure I got everything.
Baby meal worms will fall straight through the mesh though. To separate babies, I wait till all my beetles die off. Then I pick out the dead beetles, and tada, now you have a container with just baby meal worms and eggs.
This sometimes gets a bit harder to do when you have beetles coming out of pupa all the time. So it is the same as moving the beetles to a temporary container, picking out any dead beetles, then dumping the bedding into the worm drawer because its full of eggs and baby meal worms. That being said, I never throw out beetle bedding because there is always a chance there are worms and eggs. I think later I might get another container like this to help separate different sized and aged meal worms.
Also the reason I use the drawer setup. There is more airflow into the container. As a result the bedding does not get moist or wet from veggies, and dry bedding means there is a less chance for mold. Also, air flow makes them not smell so bad, because the ammonia can just evaporate. If you choose this system but are afraid of escape beetles, there are plastic drawers like this with deeper drawers, they are just much bigger.


I know sometimes +++++ has small containers of phoenix worms for sale if you want to try them out.
HOWEVER, silk worms are also naturally high in calcium. They only require really clean environments, warmer temperatures, and only eat mulberry leaves (or silk worm chow which is ground up mulberry leaves). I like silk worms and am looking into keeping them, but I hear they die easily if not kept in right conditions.

I never fed hornworms but I know what they are. They love to destroy my tomatoes. And they do get huge. I usually caught them and grew them out in jars/containers till the pupated then waited and watched the moths hatch out. I released the moths. They are really pretty moths. =]

 

[Laura Lehr]

Thanks so much for the info and pictures!!!!


Would you believe that I went to 3 different pet stores today looking for live feeders and everything was either dead or sold out????? I couldn't believe it. I'm looking into ordering online, but I do not want a lot of crickets at once- eeeew. lol Don't mind bulk worms as long as I can make them last and not die.

Do you think the medium meal worms are to big for my baby? She's about 4-5 inches (including her tail) and ive been feeding her mini mealworms so far, but they seem really tiny for her and she eats 12 in about 2 minutes, not even. I feel like she could easily eat 25-30 of the minis. I found a website with great prices and a few different choices, but they only have medium mealworms. I'm not sure if these are too big. :/

Gonna keep looking to see what else I can find.

 

[jemjdragon]

Medium should be fine.

 

[Laura Lehr]

Medium should be fine.

Thanks so much! I went out this am to a different pet store (a private run one instead of a commercial one) and they had meal worms and crickets. They hard hornworms too, but they were expensive and most in the pod were too large for her I think.

I got her crickets and gave her a couple when I got home- she got the first one no problem, but then had trouble hunting the other two I offered. She got them eventually, but seemed very confused by their ability to jump and get away. If a lizard can look baffled, than thats the perfect description of her today. lol I don't think she has ever had crickets before. lol

 

[cassicat4]

Thanks so much! I went out this am to a different pet store (a private run one instead of a commercial one) and they had meal worms and crickets. They hard hornworms too, but they were expensive and most in the pod were too large for her I think.

I got her crickets and gave her a couple when I got home- she got the first one no problem, but then had trouble hunting the other two I offered. She got them eventually, but seemed very confused by their ability to jump and get away. If a lizard can look baffled, than thats the perfect description of her today. lol I don't think she has ever had crickets before. lol

You can try disabling the crickets if your Leo has difficulty catching them. Breaking either one or both legs off the cricket will slow them down (and for some reason, most crickets seem to think they can't jump with only three legs). Another less-gruesome option is to stick them in the fridge for about 5 minutes before feeding them. This, too, slows them down and will make them easier to catch.

 

[lisa127]

Man- I keep hearing so many negative things about leos not liking phoenix worms. Too bad- they were my beardies fav for a really long time (her whole baby/adolescence period) and she thrived on them. She prefered hornworms when she got older.

I know for beardies, hornworms are considered a good feeder. Im not sure about for leos as a staple- but they are fun to try either way. For a leo though, I would def get the set of like, 25 worms which includes food to grow them to 1.5 inches in length, not the one with less worms but more food. That grows SUPER HUGE worms....I mean HUGE. The average big ones were the thickness of the space between my beardies eyes and I think they could get bigger.

It's fun to watch, they come as these tiny, skinny little worms and quickly grow. I wanna try them one of these days for my leo!

When my leo decided he didn't like the phoenix worms, I fed them to my box turtle. He loved them!