Getting some fish?

[BGalloway]

I plan on getting four fish Friday, unless they are dead by then. Any advice would be helpful.

Background: My friend "Abby" has a sister "Betty" who was renting her parents' old house, the parents now live in a different state. Betty moved out and Abby moved in. Betty left the house a mess, took some appliances that should have stayed with the house, and abandoned her fish. Abby doesn't want the fish, and since she has city water refuses to pay her money to change the water for her sister's fish. My other friend "Cathy" was going to move in with Abby to share the rent and would take care of the fish, but now she made other plans. The fish have been without a water change for weeks and are now out of food. Abby refuses to buy food to feed the fish since they aren't hers, and her boyfriend just wants to flush them. Call me a bleeding heart but that's just not right.:main_angry:

So, I plan to take the fish and set up the tank at my house. The tank is larger than a 10gal, at least a 20 and does have a filter.

1. I will bring some old water from the tank, and the tank itself, so the fish don't get shocked when I dump them in to our water. Will about 50% of the old water be enough? Even though the water is disgustingly filthy?

2. While the tank is half empty the walls will be scrubbed and the gravel cleaned. We may add plants for the fish to hide in/snack on, can this happen upon introduction to their new home, or should it wait a bit so they settle in?

3. The fish will travel in individual baggies with enough water to move about and around 50% of the bag will be air. Is this enough for a short trip? Or could they travel together in a communal baggie? The fish are decent sized so I think individual would be best.

4. We have slightly hard well water, we'll let it sit out for about 24 hours prior to the fish's arrival. Is this ok? Should conditioner be used?

5. The tank is coming with the full setup, if anything is missing we'll go the aquarium store. For goldfish, we'll meed a thermostat, lights and hood, a filter, thermometer, gravel, siphon/pump, net...I think I'm forgetting a few things though. What else would you have for goldfish?

6. I haven't had goldfish, we used to keep tropicals when I was little, so about what temperature do goldfish need? Care sheets have said about 75*F with seasonal variation, but no day night fluctuations.

7. Feed only as much as they'll eat in 1-2minutes (Duh). The care sheets I read suggested sinking pellets as opposed to floating ones, I thought goldfish ate floating pellets. Which is correct, sinking or floating?

8. Does anyone have any other suggestions or general tips for tank maintenance and care?

Thanks for reading through all this.

 

[M_surinamensis]

So, I plan to take the fish and set up the tank at my house. The tank is larger than a 10gal, at least a 20 and does have a filter.

If you know the dimensions I could tell you what it is- both actual volume and what it was sold as (they're generally slightly off).

1. I will bring some old water from the tank, and the tank itself, so the fish don't get shocked when I dump them in to our water. Will about 50% of the old water be enough? Even though the water is disgustingly filthy?

Two reasons to keep some of the existing water- the first is because the existing water (and gravel, and filter media especially) have bacteria beds growing on them that are necessary parts of the nitrogen cycle, the second is to prevent radical changes to the water chemistry the fish are being exposed to from doing a number on various physiological processes.

Fifty percent should be fine. Unless there's a massive difference between the water chemistry of the water they have been in and yours (there might be, with the well water), it might even be excessive.

2. While the tank is half empty the walls will be scrubbed and the gravel cleaned. We may add plants for the fish to hide in/snack on, can this happen upon introduction to their new home, or should it wait a bit so they settle in?

You can do it immediately. Goldfish can be a bit problematic with many live plants though, they'll eat anything with even slightly soft leaves (often killing the plant in the process unless it's a very heavily planted aquarium) and being cool water fish some of the tropical plant species (commonly available) tend to do a bit poorly.

3. The fish will travel in individual baggies with enough water to move about and around 50% of the bag will be air. Is this enough for a short trip? Or could they travel together in a communal baggie? The fish are decent sized so I think individual would be best.

Air contains greater concentrations of oxygen and O2 exchange will happen across the surface of the water. This needs to be balanced against the ammonia buildup, the smaller the volume of water the more concentrated it is and the faster the rate.

How short is a short trip?

4. We have slightly hard well water, we'll let it sit out for about 24 hours prior to the fish's arrival. Is this ok? Should conditioner be used?

pH, GH, KH, metals in the well water and in the water the fish are currently in?

The natural conditions for goldfish are slightly hard and slightly alkaline. Depending on what they have been in and just how hard your water is, it may or may not be an issue.

5. The tank is coming with the full setup, if anything is missing we'll go the aquarium store. For goldfish, we'll meed a thermostat, lights and hood, a filter, thermometer, gravel, siphon/pump, net...I think I'm forgetting a few things though. What else would you have for goldfish?

Don't bother with a heater unless your house drops into or below the low fifties. I'd suggest a couple test kits and potentially some water conditioners, depends on what you've got coming out of the well though.

6. I haven't had goldfish, we used to keep tropicals when I was little, so about what temperature do goldfish need? Care sheets have said about 75*F with seasonal variation, but no day night fluctuations.

Seventy five is high. About the absolute upper limit before you have acute health issues in fact. They do much better when it's colder, mid sixties if you can manage it without a chiller for a decent maintenance temperature.

7. Feed only as much as they'll eat in 1-2minutes (Duh). The care sheets I read suggested sinking pellets as opposed to floating ones, I thought goldfish ate floating pellets. Which is correct, sinking or floating?

Fish spend most of their lives unsuccessfully searching for food. If you're keeping them at a decent temperature, feed every other day, about as much as they can eat in a minute. Do not follow the instructions printed on any little plastic cans of fish food- the fish will eat whatever is in front of them, it's instinctive, they cannot help it... they will then pass a lot of it right through themselves half digested to pollute the tank. Fish food manufacturers will print instructions that suggest feeding the fish two or three times a day- and it is a load of crap intended to make you go through the food six times faster than is necessary.

Floating has the advantage of being less likely to land in the gravel unnoticed and rot. Sinking has the better advantages of keeping the fish from swallowing air while it eats and of being a much more natural feeding level for the species in question. If you're going to be doing gravel vacuuming when you do your water changes and a missed sinking pellet or two won't be staying in there building up... go with sinking. Especially if the fish are larger.

8. Does anyone have any other suggestions or general tips for tank maintenance and care?

Got a library card?

The internet is... vast and poorly regulated. Bad advice, bad science and misinformation abounds. There's bad information in some books too but they at least go through an editorial process before they get published and most of the more egregious stuff gets weeded out. I don't know about your local library but mine has about two dozen aquarium books... get whatever you can and read them all, if something is published in all or most of them it's probably okay. If one of them is different from all the others, it's suspect and should be checked out with outside sources (as with herp keeping, some information has been revised, added and discarded as time has gone on and a better understanding was gained, some books will contradict one another because they're discussing methods used forty years apart).

 

[BGalloway]

Thanks for the quick reply.

If you know the dimensions I could tell you what it is- both actual volume and what it was sold as (they're generally slightly off).

I'm actually getting the fish tomorrow because my friend is leaving for the weekend:main_rolleyes:. I'll have measurements tomorrow when I get the tank.

Two reasons to keep some of the existing water- the first is because the existing water (and gravel, and filter media especially) have bacteria beds growing on them that are necessary parts of the nitrogen cycle, the second is to prevent radical changes to the water chemistry the fish are being exposed to from doing a number on various physiological processes.

This is good to know, I was going to give the gravel a thorough cleaning, oops. Now I'm just going to rinse it to get rid of any waste or leftover food.

Fifty percent should be fine. Unless there's a massive difference between the water chemistry of the water they have been in and yours (there might be, with the well water), it might even be excessive.

Air contains greater concentrations of oxygen and O2 exchange will happen across the surface of the water. This needs to be balanced against the ammonia buildup, the smaller the volume of water the more concentrated it is and the faster the rate.

How short is a short trip?

A short trip is about 5 minutes if traffic and the lights are against me. I'll use individual bags and leave them pretty full; because once they're at my house I'll still have to do the floating bag, mix the water, float a bit more routine.

pH, GH, KH, metals in the well water and in the water the fish are currently in?

The natural conditions for goldfish are slightly hard and slightly alkaline. Depending on what they have been in and just how hard your water is, it may or may not be an issue.

Due to the change in timing of all this I won't be able to get samples before the move. My friend has all the test kits though so I'll check everything before the fish actually get dumped in the new tank.

Don't bother with a heater unless your house drops into or below the low fifties. I'd suggest a couple test kits and potentially some water conditioners, depends on what you've got coming out of the well though.

Seventy five is high. About the absolute upper limit before you have acute health issues in fact. They do much better when it's colder, mid sixties if you can manage it without a chiller for a decent maintenance temperature.

Oops again, I just assumed that she'd have a heater. The tank is definitely coming with test kits and water conditioner...Nobody around here trusts city water. I might need a chiller then, the house is at 75 with air conditioning, and if we get a heatwave after the AC is gone for the fall there's not much else to keep temperatures down.

Fish spend most of their lives unsuccessfully searching for food. If you're keeping them at a decent temperature, feed every other day, about as much as they can eat in a minute. Do not follow the instructions printed on any little plastic cans of fish food- the fish will eat whatever is in front of them, it's instinctive, they cannot help it... they will then pass a lot of it right through themselves half digested to pollute the tank. Fish food manufacturers will print instructions that suggest feeding the fish two or three times a day- and it is a load of crap intended to make you go through the food six times faster than is necessary.

Even when we had tropical fish we never followed the "please overfeed us" instructions on the feed bottles.:main_yes:

Floating has the advantage of being less likely to land in the gravel unnoticed and rot. Sinking has the better advantages of keeping the fish from swallowing air while it eats and of being a much more natural feeding level for the species in question. If you're going to be doing gravel vacuuming when you do your water changes and a missed sinking pellet or two won't be staying in there building up... go with sinking. Especially if the fish are larger.

I'll probably buy sinking then. My mother wants me to get a bottom feeder to help clean up after sinking pellets, honestly I think the tank's a bit small for that, four fish is enough.

Got a library card?

Hehe, of course:main_thumbsup:! My grandmother's a librarian.

I'll hold off on the plants and books until Friday, after I get the fish settled in I work all day.

 

[BGalloway]

So my friend is mathematically challenged, there are only 3 fish, no fish died, she just miscounted...There are two fantails and one comet.

The tank is a 20 tall and came with incredibly dirty filter, pH test from who knows when, siphon, net, smaller nursery tank thing, Tetra easy balance water treatment, Jungle start right water conditioner, Aquarium Products crystal clear ,Tank Buddies ich medication and no more algae drops, scrub brush, and heater that was not in use but came with tank anyway.

Is it safe to assume the pH test kit is accurate? There were no expiration dates on it that I could find. I need to go out and buy the other test kits for nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, water hardness, and alkalinity.

My mother bought two snails on Friday to clean the tank's algae, the lady at the aquarium store told her to...both of them are now dead, one on Friday the other yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas why? I asked her if the lady sold her salt water snails, but she said "no they were in fresh water".

The comet has just this morning started to exhibit strange behavior by swimming to the surface and appears to be gulping air, then he swims down and acts normal for a while, then he swims up. The two fantails are fine. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

 

[fuzzylogix]

im no expert on fish by any means. i can walk by a fish tank and they all float to the surface. but the basics of what you are describing with the going up for air indicate the oxygen levels in the water are too low. just my opinion though...

 

[M_surinamensis]

Is it safe to assume the pH test kit is accurate? There were no expiration dates on it that I could find.

They can go wonky if they're extremely old, especially the drops (as opposed to strips or tablets) they do have a built in expiration date- however every one I have come across where the manufacturer bothered to print it had a shelf life of about a decade, so you're probably good.

I need to go out and buy the other test kits for nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, water hardness, and alkalinity.

Excellent.

My mother bought two snails on Friday to clean the tank's algae, the lady at the aquarium store told her to...both of them are now dead, one on Friday the other yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas why?

Invertebrates as a broad (and sometimes completely inaccurate) generality tend to be particularly sensitive to contaminates, many chemicals and health issues resulting from rapidly changing environmental conditions.

The most common reasons would be; they're often half-dead when they arrive in pet stores to begin with (just a group of animals that have a ridiculously high mortality rate when shipped out to retail places) and that particular sensitivity tends to have them falling like canaries in a coal mine when there's an issue with waste (generally ammonia).

Although I would note that at least two of the products that you mentioned as coming with the tank are also directly toxic to snails. No More Algae and Ich medications will simply poison and kill snails directly, so if those two products had been used recently, that's also a pretty likely cause.

The comet has just this morning started to exhibit strange behavior by swimming to the surface and appears to be gulping air, then he swims down and acts normal for a while, then he swims up. The two fantails are fine. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Fuzzylogix was correct about one of the potential causes. The most likely one is, as he said, an oxygenation issue. Goldfish will go and gulp at the surface when they're not getting enough oxygen- oxygen saturation in water isn't exactly the perfect pure ratio implied by H2O as a formula- the water won't be pure because it has a lot of trace substances in it, which allows for a lot of chemical interactions and slightly off molecular ratios, water also has variable oxygen content based on the temperature (cold water contains more oxygen than warmer water, goldfish are a colder water fish that have evolved to a higher O2 concentration) and the acidity (pH is a measurement of ions, atoms or molecules with an electron count that is higher or lower than the number of protons, making a substance acidic or alkaline, this can produce some funky molecular bonds and shift the overall water chemistry in a direction that changes the oxygen saturation).

Since the fish have slightly different metabolic rates, different measurements for gill surface area and different masses, they will have different oxygen requirements and it is possible for one animal to have an issue when others are not.

Some secondary causes... swim bladder issues are a pretty good candidate, especially if it's occasional rather than constant.

And if the fish was biting *at* something, like air bubbles, then it's something sometimes seen when the animal is just obeying those instinctive dictates to try eating anything that is even potentially edible- fan-tails wouldn't be as mobile as the comet and are less inclined to make a dash for the surface to try swallowing anything they see.

 

[BGalloway]

Thanks for the advice.

I'm going to assume the snails were on their way out when they got sold to my mother...who didn't even watch the salesperson get them to make sure they were healthy looking and active. I didn't use any conditioners on the water, but I did keep some of the the old water in the tank, so it is a possibility the snails were accidentally poisoned.

I'm going to play it safe with the comet and try to get an aerator at one of the big chains. I'd try the local aquarium mom-and-pop store but they are ticking me off:main_angry:.

Yesterday when I went to buy the big test-every-value-imaginable-kit from the local aquarium store, they talked me down to just hardness, "which you don't REALLY need", and ammonia tests, but I could bring in a sample and they would run all the tests for me:main_thumbsup:. I brought in a sample today, and they said "Oh, you don't need to test oxygen. You just got the tank? Just check for ammonia". I told them the tank had been intact for ages and just moved, but no I didn't need to run those tests. I brought a full bottle of tank water thinking they'd test every value under the sun and all I get is pH and ammonia...yippee:main_thumbsdown:

They said alkalinity is the same thing as pH...but it's not:main_huh:. Oh and you don't need to test nitrite and nitrate levels until the tank's been running for a year...that doesn't sound right...

I ran my own test kits yesterday and the values came to, PH= 7.2, GH=125.3ppm, KH=35.8ppm, ammonia=0.

Thank you both again for all your help.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I'm going to assume the snails were on their way out when they got sold to my mother...who didn't even watch the salesperson get them to make sure they were healthy looking and active.

If you want snails- and they aren't necessary, algae isn't unhealthy, just kind of ugly- always make sure you're getting some that are being pulled off the sides of the tank or one of the decorations, where they had been out and slowly cruising around. Never accept the ones that are already laying on the gravel with the plug to their shell pulled in tight.

Personally I have almost always just found it easier to manage the photoperiod and the nitrates in order to cut back on algae growth, then scrape it every once in awhile (generally while doing water changes since I am there anyway) if it slowly becomes an issue.

Yesterday when I went to buy the big test-every-value-imaginable-kit from the local aquarium store, they talked me down to just hardness, "which you don't REALLY need", and ammonia tests, but I could bring in a sample and they would run all the tests for me:main_thumbsup:. I brought in a sample today, and they said "Oh, you don't need to test oxygen. You just got the tank? Just check for ammonia". I told them the tank had been intact for ages and just moved, but no I didn't need to run those tests. I brought a full bottle of tank water thinking they'd test every value under the sun and all I get is pH and ammonia...yippee:main_thumbsdown:

They said alkalinity is the same thing as pH...but it's not:main_huh:. Oh and you don't need to test nitrite and nitrate levels until the tank's been running for a year...that doesn't sound right...

Talked you... down? Into spending less money?

Personally- and sometimes because of a few species I keep having particular sensitivities- I like having every test I can get my hands on. I like having that information, like knowing exactly what is going on in the tank. Admittedly some of the tests are a lot less likely to be causing a problem and they are consequentially less useful for most people, so lots of folks won't choose to buy copper tests (for example)... but a pet shop employee who tried to get you to spend less money is strange.

And yeah, definitely not right on the nitrite and nitrate kits. If you're familiar with the nitrogen cycle you already know the ammonia -> nitrites -> nitrates -> plant food or removed through physical water changes bit. The time it takes to build a healthy bacteria bed when cycling a tank can vary and each step in the nitrogen cycle is less toxic than the one before it by a factor of about ten- but speaking in broad generalities, you usually start to see nitrite at two to four weeks and nitrate buildups sometime between about six and ten weeks after a tank has been started from nothing.

Your tank may see some spikes just because you'd have lost some of the bacteria bed in the move but there should be more than enough left to repopulate quickly and consequentially should be treated more like an established tank than a new one.

I ran my own test kits yesterday and the values came to, PH= 7.2, GH=125.3ppm, KH=35.8ppm, ammonia=0.

Decent. Excellent on the ammonia, good GH, pH is within the range for the species (although towards the lower end of ideal, I wouldn't mess with it if that's the way it's coming out of your well, more trouble than it would be worth)- KH is on the low side, that's pretty much your buffer against pH changes. If you're testing the water regularly and doing water changes with water that is arriving at 7.2 though, it's unlikely to become a problem unless you get a pretty large and sudden ammonia spike.

You might want to increase the KH- pretty much a judgement call on your part. By itself it's not going to harm the fish where it is, it's just a potential (and fairly low) risk. Altering it is also a potential (and fairly low) risk though, since messing with one aspect of the water chemistry tends to affect others. It's certainly nothing to stress over though, whatever decision you make.