is it worth rescuing?

[ReptileRy]

so today i was at petco buying mealies for shadow, and i was looking at the leos, they dropped to only $15 with the new shipment but there was one there that looked terrible, probably as long as my pinky finger and ultra mega skinny, tiny tail, black feet with long toe nails, and half closed eyes with a wet nose, shoud i maybe try to rescue him if he is still there tomorrow? i know i will have to quaritine it and get samples to a vet but is it worth it?

 

[roger]

IMO I wouldn't rescue.Once u put money into their hands you've supported their business and IMO done more harm than good

 

[fl_orchidslave]

By purchasing these sickly geckos from pet shops, you are enabling them to keep more sickly geckos. Cheap sick geckos end up being costly in vet bills, medication, equipment. And it still might die. Every bit of the equipment should be then thrown away to keep from passing on a disease that you can't get rid of.

It takes a lot of time, related knowledge and experience to rehab geckos. Some are beyond saving. Based on the questions you've asked, Ryan, I don't think you are ready to take on such a situation.

 

[ReptileRy]

yeah, i seem to think the same thing Laney. i just felt so bad for it. but thanks for the response.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

You're welcome Ryan. It would be painful to see you deal with such a case while you're learning how to care for your healthy new gecko

 

[roger]

yeah, i seem to think the same thing Laney. i just felt so bad for it. but thanks for the response.

The rare times I need to go to pet shops I put my blinders on and dont even look.its hard to look at when you see neglected animals

 

[Wowoklol]

I would probably bring up the situation to manager or owner.. Put some pressure on them to take better care of their animals.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

The rare times I need to go to pet shops I put my blinders on and dont even look.its hard to look at when you see neglected animals

I agree, Roger. Shopping online or at shows is not only a better selection of quality products, but better pricing also.

I would probably bring up the situation to manager or owner.. Put some pressure on them to take better care of their animals.

This effort is fruitless although well intended. Very few big box stores actually care about the reptiles they carry. They want to sell a $200 setup complete with crap calci-sand to someone who doesn't know any better.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Ryan, before I go off in six different directions, I wanted to specifically thank you for your decision. I have a lot of respect for someone who looks into a situation before they become involved and a lot more for someone that gives careful and reasoned consideration to their own ability, willingness and desire to get involved with animal rehabilitation. It's difficult, expensive, thankless work that most people are not suited towards. It's a difficult decision to make, concluding that it's not for you, but it is the right one.

I disagree with you a bit Laney, about education being fruitless and about the callous ignorance you're assigning to pet stores. Every situation, every store, is unique and some rare places are really terrible. Some rare places are really amazing. Most are somewhere in between, doing the best they can with what they have and generally doing okay. Employee interest and attention is usually solid, corporate policies in big box stores are actually quite good... the problems mostly arise as a result of necessary retail conditions (stocking densities being a big one), the fact that the employees (as interested and involved as they may be) rarely have the kind of expertise and judgment that the more frequent users of a site like this will have and sometimes animals arrive from suppliers in moderately crappy shape.

I don't think it's fair to issue near-blanket statements condemning them for passable mediocrity and I don't think it's fair to blast them as unwilling to do better. The communication and education aspects can take some effort to get rolling, but change, real meaningful change, can result from discussions with the owners, managers or corporate policymakers. It requires patience though, which can be difficult when you're seeing a frustrating situation.

They definitely do not try to make a quick buck selling crappy products to the ignorant consumers though, that's a really terrible business model and they would never have reached the scope that they have today if that were actually the case. All pet related businesses of that kind are highly dependent on repeat sales, they have to form positive relationships with customers, in order to make a little bit of money from them at a time, many times, for a long time. The ones that really do try to shove overpriced and bad products down the throat of consumers burn out fast.

Finally though, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of spending money wisely within the industry. Definitely keep money away from genuinely bad dealers, as painful as it may be to witness their practices, it's for the best in the long run to make bad practices as unprofitable as possible. Try to give as much financial support to the breeders, dealers and shops who do things right, when you see someone who really deserves a lot of credit and is an ideal model of how an animal business should operate, it's in the best interests of everyone to make sure they succeed. Mediocrity should be encouraged to try to do better, to strive for something more. The power we have as individuals to vote with our wallets is enormous, should we ever get lined up in the same direction sufficiently to really exercise it.

 

[Adinar]

Not worth it. You'll only end up putting more money into it for the vet and still ultimately have it die in the end. Too many times have I seen shipments like that come in or seen how little they actually care for the animals. I actually know one of the associates really well, and just some of the awful stories she tells me that the mgr's make her do where there are issues with the animals (she's has a leo of her own at home so knows how they should be cared for) there... it's digusting. They don't care. They'd rather see the sick and dying ones go out rather than send them for the vet care they need.

For as much as you want to help them, save yourself the stress.

 

[Pinky81]

The rare times I need to go to pet shops I put my blinders on and dont even look.its hard to look at when you see neglected animals

This is exactly what I do as well...I gave up going to look at the current "residents" because I would feel the same way...:main_no:

 

[JandaSeve]

I think the only way you should involve yourself is to bring it up to the manager yourself or go though the local humane society. You never know when you can make a difference. Years ago I went into a super petz store. There were dead lizards in various cages. Nothing had food. The ball pythons all had nose sores. There was a dead water dragon laying in a dried up water dish. I was furious and imediately went home and found the aspca office for that area and wrote them an e-mail. I assumed I was just getting this off my chest to someone and nothing would really be done about it. But a few months later I actually went back into that store. I was in the area and thought maybe someone did something and if not I would say something in person to whoever would listen to me. I almost fell over whenI walked in the door. Everything had water, clean water! Food. All animals looked in good health. This was about 8 years ago. I don't know if I was the one who made a difference or if they got so many complaints they deisded to do something about it. But things have not really gone down hill at all since. Sometimes if you get it in there heads that someone is watching and some people do care they might put forth a little consideration towards the care of the animals.

Just sayin'

 

[Wowoklol]

I think the only way you should involve yourself is to bring it up to the manager yourself or go though the local humane society. You never know when you can make a difference. Years ago I went into a super petz store. There were dead lizards in various cages. Nothing had food. The ball pythons all had nose sores. There was a dead water dragon laying in a dried up water dish. I was furious and imediately went home and found the aspca office for that area and wrote them an e-mail. I assumed I was just getting this off my chest to someone and nothing would really be done about it. But a few months later I actually went back into that store. I was in the area and thought maybe someone did something and if not I would say something in person to whoever would listen to me. I almost fell over whenI walked in the door. Everything had water, clean water! Food. All animals looked in good health. This was about 8 years ago. I don't know if I was the one who made a difference or if they got so many complaints they deisded to do something about it. But things have not really gone down hill at all since. Sometimes if you get it in there heads that someone is watching and some people do care they might put forth a little consideration towards the care of the animals.

Just sayin'

Nice.. Even if it doesn't warrant a call to the authorities(animals a little skinny, improper housing), you have the possibility of opening some eyes and possibly pulling on some heart strings by talking to the employees/management about the situation. like M-Surinam said, theres alot more good intention involved in most cases than it seems.. Except in this example given here.. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some jailtime involved if they hadn't cleaned up their act. If you think your efforts would help at least one animal, I'd think it'd be worth it.

 

[ProGeckoServices]

There is not going to be any jail time involved, at most probably just a small fine. The problem with a fine though is the negative attention it can have on large chains and the last thing the shareholders want is a large decline in sales attributed to the nut job animal activists and media who turn it into a doomsday story when it probably only involved a few stores. Bottom line, large companies do not want negative attention, typically if the local government gets involved things will change or the managers will lose their jobs. If you really want to make a splash, take some pictures of dead animals forward them to the local news station and write a short article about how horrid the conditions are.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I disagree with you a bit Laney, about education being fruitless and about the callous ignorance you're assigning to pet stores. Every situation, every store, is unique and some rare places are really terrible. Some rare places are really amazing. Most are somewhere in between, doing the best they can with what they have and generally doing okay. Employee interest and attention is usually solid, corporate policies in big box stores are actually quite good... the problems mostly arise as a result of necessary retail conditions (stocking densities being a big one), the fact that the employees (as interested and involved as they may be) rarely have the kind of expertise and judgment that the more frequent users of a site like this will have and sometimes animals arrive from suppliers in moderately crappy shape.

I don't think it's fair to issue near-blanket statements condemning them for passable mediocrity and I don't think it's fair to blast them as unwilling to do better. The communication and education aspects can take some effort to get rolling, but change, real meaningful change, can result from discussions with the owners, managers or corporate policymakers. It requires patience though, which can be difficult when you're seeing a frustrating situation.

They definitely do not try to make a quick buck selling crappy products to the ignorant consumers though, that's a really terrible business model and they would never have reached the scope that they have today if that were actually the case. All pet related businesses of that kind are highly dependent on repeat sales, they have to form positive relationships with customers, in order to make a little bit of money from them at a time, many times, for a long time. The ones that really do try to shove overpriced and bad products down the throat of consumers burn out fast.

Finally though, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of spending money wisely within the industry. Definitely keep money away from genuinely bad dealers, as painful as it may be to witness their practices, it's for the best in the long run to make bad practices as unprofitable as possible. Try to give as much financial support to the breeders, dealers and shops who do things right, when you see someone who really deserves a lot of credit and is an ideal model of how an animal business should operate, it's in the best interests of everyone to make sure they succeed. Mediocrity should be encouraged to try to do better, to strive for something more. The power we have as individuals to vote with our wallets is enormous, should we ever get lined up in the same direction sufficiently to really exercise it.

As retailers, they are in the business of moving product off the shelves and animals out of tanks. Naturally, they want people to come back and patronize their stores. Animals offered are on display complete with lighting, which must be appealing to the consumer, and are not intended to be there for long term care. I didn't say their products were crappy, just the calci-sand, as they carry the big brands of common items from well known companies like ZooMed, Exoterra, etc. Nor is their stock necessarily overpriced. Retail is retail. People buy what stores recommend for their animal, not out of ignorance, but they just don't know any better -yet. As gecko enthusiasts, we tend to be more inclined to provide the best possible care for our animals for the long term.

Some stores are very good, but most do fall in the passable mediocrity. The former is indeed a rarity, and folks in those local communities are fortunate to have that source. Privately owned stores have more to lose by having sickly animals, and generally but not always, do better with animal care. By the same token, there are definitely breeders who sell sickly animals. I do wonder if, in such a fretful economy, perhaps more pet stores would be open to better educating their employees on reptile care.

I should have said this effort is often fruitless

I think the only way you should involve yourself is to bring it up to the manager yourself or go though the local humane society. You never know when you can make a difference. Years ago I went into a super petz store. There were dead lizards in various cages. Nothing had food. The ball pythons all had nose sores. There was a dead water dragon laying in a dried up water dish. I was furious and imediately went home and found the aspca office for that area and wrote them an e-mail. I assumed I was just getting this off my chest to someone and nothing would really be done about it. But a few months later I actually went back into that store. I was in the area and thought maybe someone did something and if not I would say something in person to whoever would listen to me. I almost fell over whenI walked in the door. Everything had water, clean water! Food. All animals looked in good health. This was about 8 years ago. I don't know if I was the one who made a difference or if they got so many complaints they deisded to do something about it. But things have not really gone down hill at all since. Sometimes if you get it in there heads that someone is watching and some people do care they might put forth a little consideration towards the care of the animals.

Just sayin'

Glad you were able to make a difference somewhere!!!! Dead animals on display along with very poor living conditions does turn a head or two.

 

[Adinar]

I think the only way you should involve yourself is to bring it up to the manager yourself or go though the local humane society. You never know when you can make a difference. Years ago I went into a super petz store. There were dead lizards in various cages. Nothing had food. The ball pythons all had nose sores. There was a dead water dragon laying in a dried up water dish. I was furious and imediately went home and found the aspca office for that area and wrote them an e-mail. I assumed I was just getting this off my chest to someone and nothing would really be done about it. But a few months later I actually went back into that store. I was in the area and thought maybe someone did something and if not I would say something in person to whoever would listen to me. I almost fell over whenI walked in the door. Everything had water, clean water! Food. All animals looked in good health. This was about 8 years ago. I don't know if I was the one who made a difference or if they got so many complaints they deisded to do something about it. But things have not really gone down hill at all since. Sometimes if you get it in there heads that someone is watching and some people do care they might put forth a little consideration towards the care of the animals.

Just sayin'

Wow. No wonder Super Petz is going down hill and fast (or at least it is in my area). Have never personally seen dead animals but have seen no water or crudy cages and they usual run of the mill laziness of the employees.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK, I've read every response as well as your original post. Kudos to you for caring enough about a living creature to want to try and "save" it. I have been notorious in the past for thinking I was rescuing an animal, only to have my heart broken when it doesn't thrive. We all love and care for these creatures, and it's not a crime. The crime is, that retail stores see their animals as inventory items, and if there is an employee that really gives a darn they are up against the corporate mentality and doomed to be fired.

Let's put it this way... if people are willing to PAY for animals that are sick and otherwise in need of proper care an husbandry, what incentive do these chain pet stores have to remedy the problems? They are making the same money on sick animal as they are on a healthy one. In theory, you may be rescuing a gecko that is dire need of care, but you are supporting the store's disposable pet mentality.

In the many years I have been working with geckos, I can boast some wonderful success stories with 'rescuing' quite a few, but in reality I had more failures. This means I had more vet bills, more sleepless nights, and more heartache... only to come to the realization that it hasn't changed a thing in the scheme of things in big business.

It may sound harsh, but my advise is to walk away and if you do business with this particular store in the future, DO NOT go and look at the reptiles. Better yet, don't give them your business at all.

 

[roger]

OK, I've read every response as well as your original post. Kudos to you for caring enough about a living creature to want to try and "save" it. I have been notorious in the past for thinking I was rescuing an animal, only to have my heart broken when it doesn't thrive. We all love and care for these creatures, and it's not a crime. The crime is, that retail stores see their animals as inventory items, and if there is an employee that really gives a darn they are up against the corporate mentality and doomed to be fired.

Let's put it this way... if people are willing to PAY for animals that are sick and otherwise in need of proper care an husbandry, what incentive do these chain pet stores have to remedy the problems? They are making the same money on sick animal as they are on a healthy one. In theory, you may be rescuing a gecko that is dire need of care, but you are supporting the store's disposable pet mentality.

In the many years I have been working with geckos, I can boast some wonderful success stories with 'rescuing' quite a few, but in reality I had more failures. This means I had more vet bills, more sleepless nights, and more heartache... only to come to the realization that it hasn't changed a thing in the scheme of things in big business.

It may sound harsh, but my advise is to walk away and if you do business with this particular store in the future, DO NOT go and look at the reptiles. Better yet, don't give them your business at all.

Your correct that 's why I say the very rare time that im in jam for some feeders and have to go in to these pet stores I put blinders on and quickly get in and out.

 

[M_surinamensis]

The crime is, that retail stores see their animals as inventory items, and if there is an employee that really gives a darn they are up against the corporate mentality and doomed to be fired.

There were some extenuating circumstances to that firing, Marcia. From some perspectives it could be seen as justifiable, from others it was unwarranted. I still maintain that the timeline of events was... unfortunate. I don't think you and I will ever really agree on the circumstances surrounding that entire ordeal. Although I think if we were to discuss it today I'd be a lot less inclined to call you the PETA Mussolini.

Let's put it this way... if people are willing to PAY for animals that are sick and otherwise in need of proper care an husbandry, what incentive do these chain pet stores have to remedy the problems? They are making the same money on sick animal as they are on a healthy one. In theory, you may be rescuing a gecko that is dire need of care, but you are supporting the store's disposable pet mentality.

I'm not entirely comfortable blaming animal issues unequivocally on the stores. As you yourself know well, having done rehabilitation work, there's a world of difference between keeping a healthy animal healthy and making a sick one better.

Retail stores have some practices (out of necessity) which are counter to the kinds of things that are ideal, stocking densities are a big one, short or absent quarantine conditions are another that really gets me in a critical mood, habitat fixtures are usually pretty minimal. These practices are less than ideal but are also not by themselves automatically problematic. The few issues that might arise from those factors alone are multiplied intensely by instances of low quality shipments from the suppliers.

It's a bit of an ugly thing to look at, supplier responsibility; because a lot of the big volume breeders who supply the majority of some CB species also tend to be known in the herpetocultural circles. A few of them are easy to vilify, usually the flippers and the importers who are lax about sanitation. Some of them are tougher, since they literally wrote the books and proved the morphs. I don't think I'm supposed to name names, nor would I really want to* but I know YOU know what sorts of people I mean. Sometimes good people dealing with that many animals screw up, just a fact of volume intensive production models. Sometimes suppliers provide animals that would require some degree of rehabilitation to be up to a reasonable standard of health.

An argument can be made that the retail stores can make demands about quality and shop around for better suppliers, but the reality is that the suppliers always trot out their hand-picked best to use as examples of their stock when talking to the corporate suit in charge of negotiating livestock contracts. The corporation thinks they're getting fat, healthy, perfect little geckos, the employees in the individual stores know that it's not always reliable.

I'm inclined to think this splits the blame. Some people might think it just causes the blame to be shared.

It may sound harsh, but my advise is to walk away and if you do business with this particular store in the future, DO NOT go and look at the reptiles. Better yet, don't give them your business at all.

I do still agree with that though.

*I generally manage to handle the emotional side of the situation by reducing it to abstracts and percentages, then setting a threshold for how many and what kind of incidents can be anticipated.