Josh's frogs leopard gecko kit

[Caleb C]

Hey, I've recently noticed that Josh's frogs carries a leo kit, and I thought that it was pretty cool, but they offer sand as the substrate.
According to them, one of their workers successfully bred leos on sand, so he think's it's okay, especially because they use finer sand that doesn't have calcium.
I honestly think that any loose substrate can cause impaction, as leos usually aren't too accurate when eating.
I own a bag of the exo terra desert sand myself, and I can tell you, it clumps extremely easily.
What do you guys think?

 

[jenna]

Sand usually does causes impaction. They swallow it when they go after food. Over time it builds up. I wouldn't keep them on sand. I would use the colored lizard carpet or coco substrate if you are looking for a natral substrate. I go with the lizard carpet. It is easy to clean. And Lasts for ever.

 

[Caleb C]

The most common is paper towel, then reptile carpet, then slate. Coco holds humidity well, and is also a loose substrate. Coco should only be used in humid hides. At least most people won't buy leo setups from them, people don't really look at frog sites for gecko supplies.

 

[Amanda1]

Maybe it's washed playsand. I've heard that's better because the granules are round, not jagged/irregularly shaped, so they shouldn't clump as much. I've never used it though, wouldn't want to risk it.

 

[Caleb C]

It's the exo terra desert sand, some granules are a little round, and its really soft, but I wouldn't risk it with leos.

 

[joshsfrogs]

Hello,

My name is Zach, and I work at Josh's Frogs. I insure that all the animals are properly cared for and taken care of at Josh's Frogs. I've worked with reptiles and amphibians since I was 4 (currently 27), and have kept and bred several dozen species. I've worked with a wide variety of geckos in the past, from Uroplatus to the genus formally known as Rhacodactylus, Phelsuma, as well as Leopard Geckos, which I kept and bred for nearly a decade (on sand). I've also worked with a variety of other herps, including a wide variety of frogs, dwarf monitors, blue tongue skinks, bearded dragons, etc. Growing up, I worked in retail pet stores for nearly a decade - the majority of that time was spent working/managing the reptile departments. I have a BS in Zoology from Michigan State University, where I focused on Zoo and Aquarium Science, and served as a TA for the 'Biology of Reptiles and Amphibians' zoology class while attaining my degree.
We currently have a 1.2 group of leopard geckos that we keep at work as office pets, and to try out different products (our philosophy is that if it didn't work for our pets, we would not offer it to you). Those animals have been housed on sand for a little over a year, and are doing great (ie good body weight, tail thickness, activity, and they have bred several times). We primarily bowl feed (hence the included mealworm feeder in all leopard gecko kits), which greatly reduces the chance of accidental substrate impaction. The Exo Terra reptile sands are mined from dry riverbeds, resulting in a very fine (yet not dusty) sand that animals can pass very easily. We chose not to carry the calcium-based sands after several discussions I had in my academic career with zoo keepers and a zoo vet, in which concern/distaste over calcium-based substrates was discussed.
In my experience with retail pet store customers over the years, the customer was much, much more likely to keep their leopard gecko's environment clean with a sand substrate. I believe the sand was viewed as more convenient to sift and clean, as opposed to the reptile carpet-like products. Sand was also viewed as more desirable, with the vast majority of customers choosing a sand substrate over other provided choices. In the few cases of actual impaction (where it was diagnosed by a vet) I encountered over the years, only one animal was found with an excessive amount of sand in it's digestive tract. This animal was also extremely dehydrated (water was not provided via a dish or sprayed on a regular basis), and did not receive the proper mineral supplements (it's a common behavior for many animals to consume substrate if their diet is lacking vital minerals, such as calcium). I have never come across a case first-hand where impaction was caused by sand, and the animal was being kept properly.
I hope this explains our choice to provide a smooth, fine grained reptile sand with our leopard gecko kits. We will still continue to offer reptile carpet (we're actually working on developing our own), and would be more than happy to put together a kit containing reptile carpet if a customer prefers that. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, or has any other questions, I invite you to contact me directly at [email protected], or call me at 1 800 691 8178.

- Zach

 

[Geckomaster743]

I like Josh's frogs and we as a gecko community have nothing against it and chances are geckos will not always get impacted the same way you wont always die from infection from a bullet but its not worth the risk. I mean I really like those Fruit fly kits that you guys have and I see you guys at shows but Sand is a big no no and it always will be. Bark,Sand and any thing that can get stuck or swallowed is a dangerous substrate and when keeping a pet their homes in there natural enviorments should not be replicated completely. When keeping a pet you try to remove all those Dangers not stimulate them while you are in possession of the pet. They don't even see sand that much in the wild and they are found in or near peoples houses or in Caves. * Im assuming but I know that there obviously isn't a lot of sand that they encounter *

 

[Geckomaster743]

And Wow we got the attention of a BIG Company. Wowzers Were a big forum now

 

[joshsfrogs]

Haha, I'd hardly call Josh's Frogs a 'big' company. We're mainly just a group of hobbyists who (we hope) figured out how to turn our passion for reptiles and amphibians into a career. Every time "Josh's Frogs" is posted across the internet, we receive a notification email from Google.

chances are geckos will not always get impacted the same way you wont always die from infection from a bullet but its not worth the risk. I mean I really like those Fruit fly kits that you guys have and I see you guys at shows but Sand is a big no no and it always will be. Bark,Sand and any thing that can get stuck or swallowed is a dangerous substrate and when keeping a pet their homes in there natural enviorments should not be replicated completely. When keeping a pet you try to remove all those Dangers not stimulate them while you are in possession of the pet. They don't even see sand that much in the wild and they are found in or near peoples houses or in Caves. * Im assuming but I know that there obviously isn't a lot of sand that they encounter *

We specifically selected a smooth grained, fine sand due to a greatly reduced chance of impaction. Sand also absorbs and evenly distributes heat well, which is a benefit when a customer is using a heat pad (generally without a thermostat). Sand can also be kept cleaner more easily than reptile carpet.
I have kept leopard geckos on sand for over 10 years in the past (last I checked, those geckos were still living happily in the classroom of the teacher I gave them to years ago). During that time, I produced several dozen offspring, and never once had any issue of an impaction. Bowl feeding, insuring your gecko is properly hydrated, and supplementing properly greatly reduce the chances of any substrate consumption. Currently, 1.2 leopard geckos are housed on sand just a few feet from my desk, and they have been housed that way for about a year. At least one of us is present in the office for about 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, so any issues would be quickly noticed. The geckos have thrived and produced healthy offspring for us.
Leopard geckos occur over a wide geographic area in the wild, and inhabit a wide variety of different habitats, from rocky outcrops to arid grasslands, to deep and marginal desert. Leopard geckos do in fact encounter sand in the wild, and an otherwise healthy leopard gecko will have no issues being kept on Exo Terra Reptile Sand. As for the other reptile sands on the market that are primarily calcium carbonate, I strongly oppose their use with animals.

 

[Caleb C]

I'm sure that responsible people will have minimal to no problems with sand, but lots of people end up neglecting them, or pay little attention to them. I do like Josh's Frogs though, and posting here is going above and beyond in customer service to make sure that everyone's concerns are answered.

 

[Geckomaster743]

Josh's frogs is cool, But sand causes impaction. If they encounter it in the wild its not for more then a few hours at the least. Im not saying Josh's frogs isn't professional but I personally and a lot of other reptile owners would prefer to never use sand. Like I said it's not worth the risk though Im glad your previous geckos didnt' get impacted though yes there are ways to lessen the chances of impaction like bowl feeding but it gets stuck around their rear and can get in their eyes and ingested and they lick it some times just for the sake of licking it.