Leo, not eating/blue spot on stomach

[J.C.]

Read a lot from here from time to time, but first time actually posting. Apologies if there is a similar thread with this, but I've used the search feature to no avail, found things somewhat similar not quite this. Any advice or pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated.

We picked up a new Leo from a pet store shortly after our eldest and last passed (this being a few months ago), she's small, under a year old, with a carrot like coloration. We've had her for almost 3 months now and have been slow with the handling to get her comfortable and used to us. We've had Leo's for years, so we're not really new to them or anything, but this one has been rather stubborn, obviously due to something. Now, she's the only one we have currently, and she slowly stopped eating as much over the last few weeks and recently altogether, and is being stubborn to lick off herself if we attempt to feed her that way. Also, she has become increasingly lethargic and doesn't seem to want to do much of anything regardless. Now she's been to the vet, and he didn't notice anything wrong with her other than one of her eyes inner lids was practically closed, making her blind in one eye (no parasites, no impaction). This at first made sense, she wouldn't go for anything if she wasn't able to see it, so we were trying different things to get her to eat.

Been following the vets advice for trying to feed her with the food he recommended for nutrition/weight if she wouldn't go for anything else, still wont eat. She's on fine grain calcium sand, she is pooping every day, looks normal, no parasites, she's not impacted either. The latest thing is whats starting to bother me, it's a pretty obvious blue mark on her side/stomach which showed up some days after her visit to the vet. It's about the size of a quarter, and I'm not sure but it looks like its getting more obvious in color. the pictures i have of it are crummy, I have to find some other camera that works better...

going to get around to taking her to the vet again obviously, but right now, looking for any advice or if anyone has gone through a similar experience and what they did/experienced. Any information is appreciated.

 

[5HiddenLizards]

Could possibly be a parasitic infestation? I think that's what I've heard about the dark spots on the belly. Did the vet do a fecal the first time you went?

 

[Dog Shrink]

Also how does the vet know for sure it isn't an impaction? Did he do any xrays 'cause it looks scary similar to some pix I've seen of impacted leos? Calcium sand/sand in general is real dangerous stuff and I wouldn't suggest you keep her on sand esp. if she's ill just to eliminate one potential hazard. Does she poop? what are her temps ranging? How do you heat her tank? Aw heck insted of asking it all could you maybe answer this questionaire to give us a better idea of your husbandry plz:

About your leo:
- Sex
- Age
- How long have you owned your leo
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend)

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal)
- When was the last time he/she went
C) Problem
- Please briefly descrive the problem and how long it has been going on

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size
- Type (ex. glass tank)
- Type of substrate
- Hides, how many, what kind
B) Heating
- Heat source
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side)
- Method of regulating heat source
- What are you using to measure your temps
- Do you have any lights (describe)
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females)
- Describe health, or previous problems

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much)
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect)
B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands)
- What are you gut loading food with

 

[J.C.]

Sorry, probably should've been a bit more than general.

- Sex: Female
- Age: Just under a year, the vet tells me.
- How long have you owned your leo: October 10, 2010
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend): Petco

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo -: Twice or more daily
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.: Read above post
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.: She had a rather thin tail in the pet store, but due to the number of critters in the cage with her, I assumed it was due to food competition.
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal): Normal.
- When was the last time he/she went: Today
C) Problem
- Please briefly descrive the problem and how long it has been going on: Read above post

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size: 55 gallon
- Type (ex. glass tank): glass tank
- Type of substrate: Fine grain calcium sand
- Hides, how many, what kind: 5 total. 2 on the cool side, 2 on the warm side, 1 moist hide
B) Heating
- Heat source: 2 undertank heaters. One across half the cage on the bottom, one on the back of the tank 1/4 the size. 2 heat lamps
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side): Hot side 90, cool side 75
- Method of regulating heat source: thermometers
- What are you using to measure your temps: three thermometers
- Do you have any lights (describe): 3 overhead lights. One flourescent bulb across the cage, one 100W desert daytime bulb, one 75W daytime bulb (in a seperate lamp), one night time bulb (I don't know the wattage)
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females): None, just the 1 female
- Describe health, or previous problems: N/A

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much): She's being hand fed. 1/4 teaspoon of "Carnivore Care" (vet prescribed forumla) broken into two feedings, 12 hours apart.
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect): Hand fed. For over two weeks now.

Regarding parasites, she was tested for parasites with a fresh stool sample, and there were no parasites. And as far as the regard of impaction, no, he didn't do an X-Ray, she's having normal bowel movements, and her stomach feels soft, so he believed strongly there was no impaction.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Thank you for filling that out for us. A couple things I see off that bat that could be causing some of the problems... stress for one. Flourescent and uv and basking lights are not needed for leos since they are crepuscular animals (mostly active as twilight and just before dawn (not a true nocturnal in the sense that they're only awake after dark). Bright lighting and uv have been known to cause undue stress in leos please I would discontinue the use of the uv, basking, and flourescent lights first. If you need light to view or simulate day/night cycle a regular low wattage (15 watt is what I use) incandescent light is plenty to do that with out causing your leo undue stress. be sure to set it up on a timer so you get as close as possible to the daylight hours where you live. Also a thermometer doesn't control the temps in your tank, did you mean a thermostat hon?

Next, I hate to go against your vets assessment but with out an xray I don't really think it is entirely fair to rule out impaction just yet since you are keeping her on sand. What color sand please? Just because the gut isn't hard (yet) with out an x-ray I don't think they can be entirely certain. Also just because she poos isn't an indicator she's not impacted. Think of what it's like when you're constipated. It's hard to poo, but you can still do it. This could be a mild impaction, not to the point where she is completely blocked up. I would try some warm soaks daily for about 15-20 minutes maybe over the next week to see if you can help break up any possible impaction that may be an underlying cause for the discoloration just to be safe since there was no xray done to disprove impaction. Also the soaks could help with the eye issue. She may be keeping her inner eye lid shut because of a stuck shed possibly. You can also flush the eye with regular saline solution or bottled/spring/distilled water in a similar bottle to be able to stream it into the crevaces of the eye to make certain there is no stuck shed. I think a visual problem on top of the other things I'm gonna talk about could absolutely add to the stress decreasing appetite.

You might want to bump your warm side temps up to about 93-95. Sometimes the added heat helps sick leos feel a little better by speeding up metabolism, aiding in digestion, making the leo more active so she may eat more, etc. At this point it can't hurt. A lot of keepers here on the forum keep an average temp range of between 95-98 degrees if you look at the temperature poll (put polls in the search bar and you should be able to find it. If you can't let me know and I'll se if I can find it for ya).

Looking at that picture again your leo looks small/young. Would you happen to know her weight (I noticed it isn't on the questionaire, gonna have to get pretty to fix that). It could be possible this might just be organs showing thru the translucent baby-ish skin on the belly but I dunno. I've never seen organ spots that large in other pix.

Going back over the questionaire again I noticed you missed/omitted the how are you supplimenting part. Could you please describe your suppliment program and how her eating habits were before this down turn. what was she eating how many and how often.

Thanks for all the info. and for filling out the questionaire. Hopefully as more members see this they'll be better equipped to offer suggestions/advice.

 

[prettyinpink]

Pics don't work on the machine I'm on right now but I wanted to say - does it look anything like this http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=70528&page=2 (it's not as light as the pics show)

Blue markings on the stomach can mean a lot of things
It can mean internal bruising/rupture...or it can come down to she's needing to poop.`

As for what dog shrink said...have you ever taken your leo to the vet? They will stick a large light on the leo which is 'similar' to a 3d like x-ray...you can see their heart beating, their brain, everything. I personally don't like to disagree with a knowledable vet without being one. imo. Yes, sometimes x-rays are actually needed. But leos are about the only reptile that have nice see through bodies that help us look at them.

I would suggest taking her back to the vet. Mine hasn't gone away (blue mark), I'm going to be calling the vets soon...I'll use a different computer later to take a look at your pics.

See it could be nothing (meaning she's backed up) but if it's bruising I'd hate to tell you to handle her...

 

[tlbowling]

Also how does the vet know for sure it isn't an impaction? Did he do any xrays 'cause it looks scary similar to some pix I've seen of impacted leos? Calcium sand/sand in general is real dangerous stuff and I wouldn't suggest you keep her on sand esp. if she's ill just to eliminate one potential hazard. Does she poop? what are her temps ranging? How do you heat her tank? Aw heck insted of asking it all could you maybe answer this questionaire to give us a better idea of your husbandry plz:

About your leo:
- Sex
- Age
- How long have you owned your leo
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend)

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal)
- When was the last time he/she went
C) Problem
- Please briefly descrive the problem and how long it has been going on

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size
- Type (ex. glass tank)
- Type of substrate
- Hides, how many, what kind
B) Heating
- Heat source
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side)
- Method of regulating heat source
- What are you using to measure your temps
- Do you have any lights (describe)
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females)
- Describe health, or previous problems

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much)
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect)
B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands)
- What are you gut loading food with

WOW DS...Did you come up with this questionaire? I hope you kept a copy, so next time all you have to do is copy and paste

 

[Dog Shrink]

Actually Erica and I kinda brain stormed it together off a topic I posted suggesting it, but she's mostly responsible for the final outcome. it is now a sticky in the health section and I would encourage other members to use it/cop/paste it insted of asking 100 questions when some one has a health q.