Leo Still Not Eating, Swollen Limbs..

[Neon Aurora]

Hello, I'm sure some of you read my previous thread. My leopard gecko is still not eating on her own(I've been assist feeding, getting about 2 to 3 large mealies in her every other day or so), and her limbs have begun to swell up. Here's my form from the other thread:

About your leo:
- Sex: Female
- Age & Weight: a little over 1 year, 34 grams
- How long have you owned your leo: a little over 3 months
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend): Very reputable breeder

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo: Not really ever, unless I need to move her to clean her tub
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now: She ystill behaves the same way. Sleeps during the day, is pretty active at night, but doesn't eat.
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe: She didn't eat between her first and second clutch, which is partly what's causing the problem I'm having currently. She's also been taking an unusually long time to lay clutches.
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal): They are normal
- When was the last time he/she went: 6 days ago
C) Problem
Okay, here's my story. I bought this leo from a very good breeder and when she came in the mail, there was a note left in the box that said she is ovulating and I should pair her with a male soon. So I did that, and everything was fine. She laid her first clutch three weeks after being bred. But then she wouldn't eat after her first clutch. It took he four weeks to lay her next clutch, after which she ate for a little while. She gaine a bit of weight back and when she stopped eating again, I figured it was close to her next clutch. Well, it's been 5 weeks since her second clutch and she's dropping weight quite a bit. She's not lethargic, I haven't noticed any straining, and her vent looks normal, so I don't think she's egg bound.. I posted pictures, too, just in case she might not actually have eggs and is not eating for some other reason.

The other problem I'm having in with her tail. Recently, when I pick her up to move her so I can clean, she starts shaking her tail violently. Sometimes it keeps twitching for almost a full minute. She also does this in the presence of crickets(not the normal hunting tail shaking. It's much more violent) but she shows no interest in the crickets. I'm afraid her tail might be trying to fall off. If it fell off, I'm not sure she would survive losing what little fat she has left.

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size: 16 qt tub
- Type (ex. glass tank): tub
- Type of substrate: paper towels
- Hides, how many, what kind: 2, 1 most/warm at about 90 degrees, and one cool at room temp
B) Heating
- Heat source: strip of 4 inch heat tape
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side): 90 degrees on warm side, room temp on cool
- Method of regulating heat source: thermostat
- What are you using to measure your temps: digital thermometer with probe
- Do you have any lights (describe): no
C) Cage mates: none
- How many (males, females)
- Describe health, or previous problems

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much): She will only eat crickets, but as I said, she hasn't shown any interest in eating for weeks
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect): dusted crickets running around in the tub at night
B) Supplements (describe how often): I've been dusting with calcium every feeding since she was producing eggs, but she hasn't been eating
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands): reptocal I think it's called. It's worked for me for years
- What are you gut loading food with: flukers

She still walks fine, no wobbling or shaking and walks evenly on all legs. Her jaw is still very strong. I can tell because she can still easily crush the mealworms I put in her mouth and she bit me the other day, and it hurt.

Is it early MBD, or is something else going on?

 

[DrCarrotTail]

The swelling and thickened joints possibly point to gout in my non-veterinarian opinion. Gout tends to be caused by diet, chronic dehydration or kidney failure. I would get her in to see a qualified reptile vet ASAP for a diagnosis. There may be something that can be done to reverse it if I'm right. In the meantime keeping her well hydrated may help. Soaking her once a day in 90-95 degree water for 10 minutes and making sure she has a nice moist hide couldn't hurt at least.

Fingers crossed it's easily fixable! Keep us posted on how she does!

 

[DrCarrotTail]

A good indicator that it is gout would be white deposits of uric acid around joints. They would look like bright white balls (for lack of a better term). I think there's something that looks like one on one of the toes of her right front foot in the second picture. If the underside of her right rear leg looks white I would assume the swelling is from this uric acid buildup as well. Again, I'm not a vet, just giving advice based on pictures I've seen on the internet so getting the opinion of someone qualified to give one would be best. I could be super far off.

 

[Neon Aurora]

Well, I think you're right. I looked at her again and it does look like she's got some white bits in the swollen areas, especially above the wrists. I wasn't able to get an appointment with the vet until monday(this is the only one my local reptile shop that I trust very much recommended to me), so I'll try the soaks and stuff until then. I can't possibly imagine what would cause this. She's hardly eaten since I got her(so not too much protein), and she's had constant access to water. =/ I'm really not having too much luck with this particular animal.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

In leopard geckos I don't think gout is usually caused by having too much protein since they're carnivores. I've most often heard that it stems from the diet of their food, especially dubia roaches. if the roaches are fed too much protein they build up uric acid in their systems which is then transferred to the gecko and it builds up since their kidneys can't clear it out fast enough. It also could be caused by a genetic condition that decreases the efficiency of the kidneys and out of anyone's control. Either I don't think this is something that happens overnight or even in a few weeks. I would contact the breeder you got her from to ask what she was eating there and to let them know this may be the issue. That way they can watch out for it in their other geckos, switch up their diet and/or pay particular attention to the offspring of the parents of this gal if it turns out to be genetic.

Fingers crossed for your gal!!

 

[Neon Aurora]

Do you know how much a blood test is(in general) for reptiles? I'm assuming they'll take one and it'd be nice to know how much money(approximately) I need to put aside for this appointment.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I am honestly not sure they would do one. My vet is a pretty practical guy and seems to treat symptoms since many diagnostics are less helpful for reptiles (or impossible on very small animals) since there may not be well known results from healthy animals for any one particular species to compare results to. Also, many vets for small animals understand that costs can be prohibitive quickly for owners and try to keep them down to give the animal a chance at recovery. I would bet they would look over, diagnose, give you an idea of how far the disease has progressed and recommend a course of action based on what they find. I honestly have no idea what treatment can be given but I don't know a whole lot about gout other than the symptoms and causes. It may be largely untreatable or there could be a relatively inexpensive medication that can help leech the uric acid out of their system. Simple things like time and hydration may also be a great help if it hasn't progressed too much. I've never walked out of my vet paying more than $125 for a visit and meds but my vet has been really great to me.

arav.org is a great place to search for a good reptile vet near you if you don't have one already. You can always call and ask what their office visit fee is and what they charge for a recheck and decide once you have someone with first hand experience give you advice about the best course of action.

 

[Neon Aurora]

That does seem like good practice, seeing as leopard geckos are so small and stuff. I'm going to give this vet a try since a place I trust recommended them, but we'll see how it goes. I don't really have a go-to reptile vet because I've actually been lucky enough to have never needed to go to one until now. This one charges $30 for an exam, and I thought that was fine so I decided to give it a try. I'm a little skeptical of new vets sometimes, as I've definitely had ones in the past do unneeded tests and stuff just for money.

I also got into contact with the breeder I got her from, so we'll see where that discussion goes. Thanks for the help, I seriously had no clue reptiles could get gout. I've never heard of it or had a problem with it. I'll definitely be continuing with the soaks and perhaps syringe feeding a little extra water to her. I'll post updates if anything changes, and after I've gone to the vet. I really hope this is not genetic, because I bought her with the intention of breeding.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Just be careful! Many vets that don't specialize in reptiles give generalized advice that's not always appropriate. Approach anything you're told with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research. That's my general approach to medical issues with all of my animals!

Good luck and I hope your current vet can help!

 

[Neon Aurora]

Of course. I asked my local reptile shop, and they said these guys are the best in town. I actually think I've been to them one before, when I first started keeping leopard geckos when I was just a little kid. I think it was for a case of mouth-rot, but it's hard to remember.

I've been doing a lot of reading on gout. The prognosis seems very poor. It seems like the drug they normally give doesn't work so well. I guess it also depends on if it's primary or secondary. I guess there's one where it's a metabolic problem, and the other is caused by poor husbandry. There's also the type that is uric acid deposits, and then the type that's calcium deposits. I don't think it could be the calcium deposits seeing as she's barely been eating anything, and therefore not getting excessive amounts of calcium.

I noticed the swelling a while ago, actually, but it didn't look too bad so I decided to just keep an eye on it. It seems like it got a lot worse really fast. I wonder if she's just got kidney problems. Regardless, I guess I'll have to wait to see what my vet says. I talked to her breeder and he said he's never seen a case of gout in any of his collection, and that he'd be willing to replace her(as much as I don't like to use the word "replace" for live animals) if she doesn't pull through. I'm going to do what I can. I doubt it'll ever be a good idea to breed her, though, on the chance that it is a genetic problem. Also, it seems like reptiles who get gout suffer bouts of it for the rest of their lives and I doubt the extra stress and weight of being gravid would help her situation.

 

[Neon Aurora]

Alright, so I went to the vet. It could've gone better, really. The doctor was very busy this morning so I didn't get to talk to her as much as I wanted. I'm planning to call back and talk to her more. She's also got a recheck in a week.

She said that it looked like gout but she wouldn't be able to tell unless she did blood work. I decided against the blood work because it was very expensive and I'm fairly positive it's gout from the reading I've done. I was given a list of stuff she wanted to give me. I made a judgement call and decided not to take all of it. I decided to start with the fluids. I was given saline solution to administer subcutaneously every day(2 ml). It's very difficult to do on something so small, but I figured that would be the most helpful thing right now. I was also given a prescription for allopurinol which I took and wanted to come home and do a bit of reading on the medication before filling the prescription. I'll fill it tomorrow once I know a bit more about it. So that's where I am right now, we'll see how it goes.

Oh, she also recommended I start using a heat lamp, but I'm not really sure I'm going to follow that advice. She said the ambient air temperature should be higher, but seeing as this particular gecko spends all her time in the humid hide(the floor of which is at 90 degrees), I assume her ambient air temperature is pretty warm. Heat lamps also dry everything out and seeing as the point of the fluids is to keep her hydrated and the fact that I live in a desert as it is, I may just stick to what I've got now. That would also require me to move her into a larger enclosure and I don't want to put the extra stress on her because getting those fluids looks very stressful.

So, I suppose we'll see how it goes.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Sounds like you got some good advice. When my snake was sick my vet also recommended putting her under a heat lamp so the tank was 92-95 degrees. She said that being warmer might speed the healing process and help the antibiotics she was on get through her system more effectively. My snake wound up sleeping on the cool side of the tank to get out of the heat tho...haha. Sub-cu fluids sound like a good idea as well.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

 

[Neon Aurora]

I'm starting to feel kind of bad about the level of stress I'm putting her through.. To get all the fluid in, I have to poke her in 4 or 5 different places, every day. Not to mention, I've got no experience with needles and it's very difficult. I also have to give her the medicine, assist feed mealworms, and syringe feed calcium. Do you really think it's okay to expose her to so much stress? Every day she gets poked, prodded, stuff forced into her mouth. The needle just seems kind of intense on something so small..

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Last time I gave injections to a sick leo I was using those really small insulin needles. They didn't seem too bad but if you're using something bigger it may be even more stressful. The actual poke doesn't hurt much but getting them to stay still is tough. You should be able to inject at least 1cc in a single location if she stays still long enough. The bubble will look pretty scary big but skin stretches and it will be okay.

If her prognosis is poor and you think the treatment is ruining her quality of life or that she's in pain. I might consider putting her down. I would talk with your vet. I don't think there are right or wrong answers when it comes making the tough choice of euthanasia. In my opinion the only wrong choice is to not seek vet care and leave an animal to suffer, which you are obviously not doing. You need to do what you need to do so you can sleep at night. I just had to decide with my dog and it was really hard but in his case there was no where to go but downhill and, while I miss him, I sleep soundly at night knowing I saved him from going through any more pain than he did and that the decision was the right one for him. Definitely not easy but a question all pet owners need to ask themselves at some point

 

[Neon Aurora]

Well I think I'll give her until the course of medicine is over. If she doesn't improve, I'll consider putting her down. =/