leucisism info

IMacBevan

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I posted this at the end of the blizzards/ leucistic thread but wasn't sure if anyone had seen it. If this needs to go back there then the powers that be, please shuffle accordingly and I apologize.

So, I pulled all my research that I used for my lecture on color morphology in reptiles and amphibians and found the following definitions:

"Leucisism - Leucistic reptiles are completely lacking in all pigmentation and usually appear completely white. Older individuals often develop dark smudgy coloration, possibly through the same process which adds dark pigmentation to tyrosinase positive albinos"
- from VMSHerp.com.

I don't necessarily concur with their statement regarding T+ amels, my research indicates something else.

"Leucisism, also caused by an autosomal recessive gene mutation, is an inheritable defect affecting all chromatophores. Leucistic animals lack functional malanophores and xanthophores, and posess minimal iridophores. Leucistic individuals are solid white, with no pattern, except for the eyes, which are dark blue or black. Dark pigmentation is sometimes found about the body of leucistic animals, but again, melanophores are non-functional in such individuals."
- unfortunately, for some reason I didn't notate where this source was from.

These are the primary definitions that I use to quantify blizzards as leucistics.

"Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals.

Leucism is a general term for the phenotype resulting from defects in pigment cell differentiation and/or migration from the neural crest to skin, hair or feathers during development. This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.

Since all pigment cell-types differentiate from the same multipotent precursor cell-type, leucism can cause the reduction in all types of pigment. This is in contrast to albinism, for which leucism is often mistaken for. Albinism results in the reduction of melanin production only, though the melanocyte (or melanophore) is still present. Thus in species that have other pigment cell-types, for example xanthophores, albinos will not be entirely white instead displaying a pale yellow colour.

More common that a complete absence of pigment cells is localized or incomplete hypopigmentism, resulting in irregular patches of white on an animal that otherwise has normal colouring and patterning. This partial leucism is known as a "pied" or "piebald" effect; and the ratio of white to normal-coloured skin can vary considerably not only between generations, but between different offspring from the same parents, and even between members of the same litter. This is notable in horses, the urban crow[1] and the ball python[2] but is also found in many other species. In contrast, albinism always affects the entire animal.

A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE), albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes. This is because the melanocytes of the RPE are not derived from the neural crest, instead an outpouching of the neural tube generates the optic cup which, in turn, forms the retina. As these cells are from an independent developmental origin, they are typically unaffected by the genetic cause of leucism.
Genes that, when mutated, can cause leucism include, c-kit [3], mitf [4] and ednrb [5]"
- from Wikipedia


I just found this definition on Wikipedia, so I am still absorbing what it is saying. The logic involved with it being a result of an issue during diferentian at the neural crest makes some sense to me, but I need to stew on it a bit more.

Any thoughts? Comments?

Ian B.
 
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Grinning Geckos

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From what I'm getting out of that, the cells that make both melanophores and xanthophores are not there. That leaves any coloration to derive from iridophores only. (I'm having fun...are you? I'm such a nerd.) BTW ... wikipedia has a pretty informative section on chromatophores! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatophore

Heehee...I think you know where I stand. :main_thumbsup:

SO.....If only iridophores are suppose to be present, I don't think blizzards fit at all. No one argues that the dermal melanocytes are present in blizzards. Also, partial leucism doesn't equate to partially functioning chromatophores, it equates to patches of white (pied).

It might be difficult to determine where the coloration seen in banana blizzards and midnight blizzards is coming from, except for one critical point - iridophores are (by nature) iridecent and would display at least a small amount of color shift depending on lighting. I've seen evidence of iridophores in young leos, usually floating over the lavendar areas where the epidural melanocytes in the bands are regressing. It has a sparkling appearance, but so far every leo I've noticed it on has grown out of the effect (perhaps from thickening of the skin). From that, I think iridophores play a minimal role in the coloration of leos. I don't think it would be possible for this intensity of color to come from the small amounts iridophores present in a leo. I think iridophores could account for at least some of the yellow in the banana blizzards, but not all.

BL20group201.jpg

(photo by www.crestedgecko.com)
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=170701
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=156194

To further my point - in a large number of blizzards, a layering effect of pigment is quite evident...as seen here (always yellow over grey). The last one even has a bit of orange at the base of the tail.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=271607
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=187822
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=143673
 
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Grinning Geckos

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Marula - What Ian and I have been discussing is if Blizzards are leucisitic. I'm of the opinion that Blizzards aren't leucistic and there are no real leucistic leopard geckos (yet). Ian feels that they are leucistic (but it looks like he's wondering?).
 

marula

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...i think the same...for me blizzard isn't a really leucistic gecko....some people in europe try this season to breed blizzard with a "leucistic gecko" (were they found it?)...i don't know if they take a mistake with an simple normal light patternless...probably they don't have a really leucistic geko...if a really dna test will not be found i think will be impossible to know if a gecko is really leucistc..and with patternless, blizzard, light geckos is simple have a mistake...
 

Grinning Geckos

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Well, it's possible that someone in Europe has found a true leucistic. Over there they can get imported wild leos, so they have a better chance of finding one then we do in the US.
 

IMacBevan

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Nope, I'm still in the Blizzard is a leucistic camp.

When one looks at leucistics in a broader scope we see some discrepencies. When looked at in Snakes we end up with the "ideal" leucistic (though there are some who are arguing about that quite vehemently particularly with regards to P. regius) - a white animal with dark blue/black eyes. As a side note (and I may have to go look at my picture files again to verify) but the eyes of most of the leucsictics I have seem appear to look like what we are calling eclipse eyes. Hmmm, wonder if there is a corellation there....

However when we look at leucistic turtles and tortoises we start to see some anomalies. Take the "Ivory" sulcatta - everyone pretty much agrees it is leucistic, yet it is yellow with a dark eye. I've seen pictures of some of the softshell leucistics which are white with dark eyes and smudgy grey spotting on the carapace. Most of the other leucistics I have seen are hard shelled chelonians and most of those have a yellow shell as opposed to a white shell. Most are calling these leucistics with out much arguement.

At least two of the definitions I posted talk about the dark smudgy appearance as the animals age. No one seems to know what mechanism is involved or how to explain it. Now, I'll give you the picture of the midnight blizzard that Shanti has posted as raising some questions about the trait. That is the darkest Midnight Blizzard ADULT, that I have seen. In regards to the Banana blizzard, I still don't recall seeing a vividly colored adult. Perhaps whats going on there is that the Chromatophores are working well while the neonate is young (or embryonic), but since the skin cannot support the chromatophores, they (the chromatophores) eventually reduce their function as they mature. Not sure.

The other commonality in the definitions is malfunction or non fully functional chromatophores. As far as I know most of the studies on leucisism have been performed on Axotls (sp?) which may be the heart of the problem as we are talking about a definition given to the trait as it applies to amphibians and I don't think Axotls are known for their color changing ability.

What I'm saying is that since we are dealing with a reptile that is known to color change to a certain degree, that we may not fully understand how this trait is working in this case.

So far I haven't heard anything that explains this better than the current definition of leucisism, consequently I prefer to categorize it there until either a.) the mechanism is more fully understood and would prove it or b.) someone comes up with a better name/ understanding of what is going on.

Sounds like we're at a draw. Though I have to admit I'm enjoying this discussion alot. It's great to have a well thought out, reasoned, non insulting debate on the subject.

I guess we're kind of like the taxonomists (the lumpers and sorters as we used to call them in my zoology and botony classes). I'm in the camp of "if it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck".

Ian B
 

Grinning Geckos

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Haha...lumpers and sorters - I like it! If there's one thing thats consistant with taxonomy (and science in general), it's that everything is merely theory and not fact thus open to change.

I'm cool with a draw! If nothing else, I'm learned a good deal and got to stretch my mind a bit (that felt good).

I guess we'll know when a true leucistic pops up. :p :main_laugh:

We might find out more if someone is succesful in seperating the eclipse eyes from the blizzard. (I'm thinking it can be done with some work) As it is, normal eyes are more common in the blizzards than the eclipse.
 
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Ian S.

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LOL...I've definately learned alot from both of you.
Thank you Shanti & Ian B. for the all the research you both have put in to this discussion.
You guys know my vote:main_thumbsup:
 
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IMacBevan

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Since we've come to a standstill at the moment (until one of us throws something out there for us to debate some more on!!! Come on I know everyone is scrambling trying to find something new) should we start a discussion on what is going on with the three (possibly four) forms of amelanism?

How bout it? Start a new topic to keep our minds going?

Ian B.
 

Grinning Geckos

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There is a possible forth? LOL....do share! I thought that was a rumor that was disproven.

I am imagining you'll know a great deal more about this subject than I do, but I'm always up for learning something new.

There could also be a discussion about the Mack/Gem/Urban/line breed snows. Again, not my area, but I know a lot of people are working with them and may have some insight. That one really tickles my brain.
 

brandy101010

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If leucistic is a deformity Where they lack functional malanophores and xanthophores. Would there not be medical tasts that could be done to confirm if the blizzard has this deformity or not?
 

IMacBevan

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Well, I don't know that I would call it a deformity. Mutation might be a better term. While I'm sure there might be a way to test for leucisism, that would require there be a market for the test and most of the tests that i have seen would require a surgical operation or perhaps the destruction of the animal to make it happen. Not something most of us would be willing to do.

I haven't heard of anybody in the academic world who have taken up this as a study project. I'm going to contact a friend of mine who works in that realm and see if he might be able to point me in a direction.

Ian B.
 

IMacBevan

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In terms of the fourth form of amelanism, I haven't heard that it has been proved or disproved. Last I heard Justin from Intense Herps had the only het male in the country and was working on seeing if it was compatible with any of the other forms. Justin if you're out there any luck with this? Kelli, any news that you have heard?

Ian B.
 

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