My Leo's

[berlynne83]

Fiona (Fifi )

Is she considered patternless?

Dottie

She's about 6-7 months now, and het for bell albino. Does she look like she might turn out to be a morph of some sort? (I'm new to figuring out the what's what of who's who in morphing.) I picked the trio of sisters up from a breeder who was doing super snows from scratch. There's some spots on her tail that are turning a bright orange. I wish I had a nice camera. :/

Peggy the piglet

Second sister in the trio, second laying so slightly younger than the first. Her markings actually look lavender in real light, not so hot in the camera flash though.

And Baby, the runt I just had to have because she was well.... the runt.

Third sister, third laying from the same mother father pair. I got the ones that didn't turn out to be snows, these three were intended to be pets for my children... but I got greedy and kept them. They're getting brighter and brighter with each shed. And each show lavender in better lighting against a super bright banana yellow.

Spots

This here is THE Man. My surprise gecko gift that convinced me that reptiles do indeed have personalities and Leo's are the most awesome animals walking the face of the planet! I love my Spots! He spends most of my waking hours draped around my neck while I do... whatever.

J.R. (aka Junior)

This guy is my gentle Giant. Big, meaty, huge, long Junior. The biggest gecko I've ever owned at 98g. He's just over a year and he's got the most laid back attitude towards life I've ever seen.

Jezebel

An unknown albino of sweet disposition.


I would like to try the breeding hobby since everything leo is fascinating and endlessly engrossing but I thought maybe you guys with your experience might help me decide where I'm going. I am DEFINITLY picking up at least one more leo, but I haven't made any choices yet. I love the bolder extreme contrast look over the albino look, so I don't know if anyone in my colony will help me achieve that or not. Everyone I have was either a rescue or a gift of sorts, I never picked up a Leo with the express thought of breeding, I just genuinely love they're individual personalities.

And I don't want to be flamed for mudding the genetic waters with my tinkering, so any suggestion is welcomed, I have a few ideas but you ladies and gentlemen know what you're doing!

 

[Kristi23]

The first one is a hypo, maybe hypo tangerine, but tough to tell from the pic. Not patternless though. Dottie looks like a normal (het bell).

For breeding, I suggest studying and learning as much as possible before you ever put anything together. If you don't know the full genetics on the geckos you have, wait and buy a compatible pair for breeding. That way you're not accidentally breeding a het bell to a het tremper or something like that. Study the morphs and decide what you like and go from there. There is a lot to learn and it may seem overwhelming at first, but it's worth learning as much as possible. Good luck!

 

[berlynne83]

I wouldn't dare breedJezzie based on her unknown albino status, and I know the three sisters are Mack Snow x bells, and junior has het temper so I wouldn't be breeding him with the sisters. Spots and fifi shared a tank for as long as I've had them and although Fifi does ovulate, from the continuous research and forum following I've been doing that's what appears to be happening with the pretty red spots on her belly, Mr.Spots has no interest whatsoever ever. It's not that I haven't been doing my research. I haven't just picked up a couple of new pets and decided the world needs more....being pin pointed a newbie who needs to read wasn't exactly what I was going for.... :/ I have read. I've followed every post in you're breeding, morph and every other topic you guys have, I guess I don't know what I was expecting,but it Wasn't that. I said I didn't want to muddy the gene pool, how far back are you supposed to know before you breed? I was more looking for some suggestions I guess. Maybe I'll try the other topic instead of trying to ask an innocent question listed with what I have here.

 

[Neon Aurora]

Well if you are positive that the three sisters are mack snow het bell, then you can work with that. Generally, we give the response "do more research" because there are so many different options when it comes to breeding that it would take a very long time to list what you could do.

It sounds like you are confident that the three girls you have are mack snow het bell and that Junior is het tremper. Do you know the genetics of the other two? Generally it is recommended that you know for sure the genetics of each of your breeders. If you don't know what their hets are (which requires knowing the genetics of the parents), then breeding these would be considered muddying the waters.

If you want to breed the mack snow het bells, than I would go for something involving more bells. For example, if you got a mack snow bell male, than you could produce some mack super snow bells (if you hit the odds) as opposed to if you bred them with another say, mack snow no hets, you could get some mack super snows 25% het bell.

From your first post, it sounds like you are a fan of bold patterning. This sort of look is a line-bred trait. In other words, you would have to start with animals that have bold patterning and select the offspring from that pairing with the boldest (or whatever you like) patterns. This sort of breeding is pretty different from combining compatible genes (like with albinos) and takes quite a bit longer.

Again, it is really hard for us to list options for people because there are simply so many. We tell people to read about morphs because that narrows it down quite a bit, and they can come back and ask questions about a few certain morphs that they decided they like. Does that make sense?

If you give us a better idea of what you are looking to produce, then we can answer you better.

 

[Kristi23]

I wouldn't dare breedJezzie based on her unknown albino status, and I know the three sisters are Mack Snow x bells, and junior has het temper so I wouldn't be breeding him with the sisters. Spots and fifi shared a tank for as long as I've had them and although Fifi does ovulate, from the continuous research and forum following I've been doing that's what appears to be happening with the pretty red spots on her belly, Mr.Spots has no interest whatsoever ever. It's not that I haven't been doing my research. I haven't just picked up a couple of new pets and decided the world needs more....being pin pointed a newbie who needs to read wasn't exactly what I was going for.... :/ I have read. I've followed every post in you're breeding, morph and every other topic you guys have, I guess I don't know what I was expecting,but it Wasn't that. I said I didn't want to muddy the gene pool, how far back are you supposed to know before you breed? I was more looking for some suggestions I guess. Maybe I'll try the other topic instead of trying to ask an innocent question listed with what I have here.

Muddying the waters is mixing things like albino strains, etc. So I guess I don't know what types of answers you are looking for. If you know the morphs, then you just need to know what you want to make and go from there. With what you have, you'll only be able to make macks and bells (possibly snow bells if breeding two mack het bells together).

I'm not sure how long you've had the geckos, but males and female will eventually breed when kept together. As long as they are compatible morph wise and you have the means to take care of the babies, you'll be fine.

As for helping you decide where you are going with breeding, that will all depend on what you hope to achieve. Since you've been reading, you know that there is more to breeding than throwing two geckos together to try to make babies. It's really all going to depend on you. Once you know what you hope to produce, we can help with pairings.

I'm sorry that my reply wasn't what you expected, but you talked about wanting help with not muddying the waters and with what your geckos were. That was the info I gave you.

 

[Kristi23]

Well if you are positive that the three sisters are mack snow het bell, then you can work with that. Generally, we give the response "do more research" because there are so many different options when it comes to breeding that it would take a very long time to list what you could do.

It sounds like you are confident that the three girls you have are mack snow het bell and that Junior is het tremper. Do you know the genetics of the other two? Generally it is recommended that you know for sure the genetics of each of your breeders. If you don't know what their hets are (or if they have any), then breeding these would be considered muddying the waters.

If you want to breed the mack snow het bells, than I would go for something involving more bells. For example, if you got a mack snow bell male, than you could produce some mack super snow bells (if you hit the odds) as opposed to if you bred them with another say, mack snow no hets, you could get some mack super snows 25% het bell.

From your first post, it sounds like you are a fan of bold patterning. This sort of look is a line-bred trait. In other words, you would have to start with animals that have bold patterning and select the offspring from that pairing with the boldest (or whatever you like) patterns. This sort of breeding is pretty different from combining compatible genes (like with albinos) and takes quite a bit longer.

Again, it is really hard for us to list options for people because there are simply so many. We tell people to read about morphs because that narrows it down quite a bit, and they can come back and ask questions about a few certain morphs that they decided they like. Does that make sense?

If you give us a better idea of what you are looking to produce, then we can answer you better.

You must have replied right before me.

 

[cowana]

The Mack Snows can be a lot of fun to work with. Depending on what you pair them up with you can get a lot of different morphs out of them.

I suggest looking at the www.reptilecalculator.com to do some "test breedings" to see if there is a certain look you want to try breeding towards. It'll help you figure out a basic game plan and then we can maybe give some more detailed guidance.

I don't think anyone means to come off as cold or callous.

 

[berlynne83]

I'm probably being overly sensitive, and could have given a heck of a lot more information.... I think I might have just gotten a bit carried away with the excitement of actually talking to a group of people who've all been there and done that and expected you to read my mind! (After rereading my comments with my pictures with a jaded eye...I think I might have come off as a teenager with a beanie baby collection) >_< Sorry! Lol I talk to lizards better than I talk to people! That's probably why I've only saturated my brain through books and online forums without partaking. I've only had Spots about 2 years now,so I'm not a super experienced been there done e that keeper yet and I'd really like some insight into the brains of the experts and getting all easily bruised isn't the way to do it! But despite my scattered approach I do know some genetics for my Leo's but there's others I wouldn't touch for breeding. I did do a "introduce yourself" post at one point but lost it after the update. I think I just get a bit prickly when I'm told to do my own reading because I've read EVERYTHING I could possibly find that even include the word gecko......but I tend to come off as a bit of an airhead admittedly so I kind of get it a lot :blush:

 

[berlynne83]

I love bold stripes and jungles, and my ultimate question would have eventually ended up with how do I get bold giants out of my very wild looking giant? (And he did fit the giant criteria by the appropriate age mark and was previously bred and produced what appeared to be 2 giants out of the 4 clutch the previous owner had) . But that would have been posted under a different topic. I've even got the calculator and the LG pro (ahem... while entertaining and pretty, I didn't find it very informative) I think what I should have been asking is if there anyway to produce something bolder out of het bells than albinos, but I certainly wouldn't have read it or put that together from my ramblings over my baby pictures xD

 

[Neon Aurora]

I can't answer you about the giants really, as I don't work with them and don't fully understand how the genetics of that works. I would think it would be polygenic, but my reading doesn't quite agree, so I'll wait for someone who knows for sure to answer that.

If you don't want to produce albinos, than I would not use the het bells. You could always go down the road of producing bold stripe albinos?

Breeding the het bells without the intention of producing albinos will result in clutches that are 25% het bell, and the generation after would be 12.5% het bell, and the generation after would be 6.25% het bell, and so on and so forth. This isn't exactly muddying the waters as long as you keep track of the hets, but it does introduce sort of a "messy" element to it because you end up with a very low chance that an offspring is het bell, but it could still be possible.

Now, doing this wouldn't be terrible. I've seen some very reputable breeders with 6.25% hets (rarely, but I have seen it), but IMO it is always better to try and work with what you have instead of taking what you have and trying to turn it into something else.

This guy is pretty neat from geckosetc.com:
http://www.geckosetc.com/images/avail/0313/BSBM5_9_5R_0313_600.jpg

He is a bold stripe bell. If you were to get a gecko like him, you could get a variety of different patterns (stripes, jungles, etc). 25% bell albino, 25% bell snow, 25% normal (you might get some pretty, bold patterns here) het bell, and 25% snow bell.

I hope you find some of this helpful. =)

 

[berlynne83]

Now that was wonderfully helpful! Thank you! He is quite an attractive little guy. And this is information I can catalog and one day maybe use! and thank you for the reminder of trying to turn what I have into something else. I think I might try to get my hands on a jungle female and do some line breeding with my giant. If I can get a few opinions on how to do it right. I am quite happy keeping those I have as strictly pets if it comes to it, I'm in love with them more than enough to house and feed and entertain my colony even if they aren't producing award winning offspring!

 

[cowana]

Neon has some really great ideas, and giants are becoming more popular I believe. Bold Giants would be a fun first project for you to try! Usually one female can lay any where from 8-14 eggs in a year but some have laid (24!), so one they one female your first season is a good idea.

You could get a nice bold Stripe/Jungle/Bandit female to cross with your male. Then work on refining traits by linebreeding, and bring in occasionally some new bold male or females to keep new blood in the lines and keep refining it.

In later seasons you may want to do try a project with your Het Bells. There is a lot of possibilities there also but 3 females is a lot the 1st year. LOL I have 3... Two of my own, and a rescue and it is time consuming.

 

[berlynne83]

Lol the thought of three at once is a bit to much for me yet, I think! I did take that into consideration too. I have nothing but time on my hands......but, I'd like to keep some of it.

 

[cowana]

Lol the thought of three at once is a bit to much for me yet, I think! I did take that into consideration too. I have nothing but time on my hands......but, I'd like to keep some of it.

I totally understand! I'm off work currently with a back injury and have a wonderful support team. My boyfriend, roommate, her son (16) and my dad are all really helpful. My dad built my racks for me and all of them have been learning everything they possibly can. They attend all the reptile shows with me and participate in their care. When the babies come it will really make it a lot easier to be able to do other things.

 

[Kristi23]

You got some great answers now that we have a little more info on what you want to do.

If you know your male is definitely a giant, then you're already on your way. You could pick up another giant to try for super giants. Adding a bold stripe to the group will get you on track to produce bold stripe giants, but you'll probably need a few seasons to produce ones with really nice stripes. There really is a lot you can do once you have an idea of the look you're going for. Good luck!

 

[berlynne83]

Unfortunately I'm off indefinitely, I had surgery to remove my thyroid that was cancerous the surgeon did nerve damage to the right side of my body. But on the bright side I've found Leo's and how endlessly entertaining their antics can be! I do truly count my first surprise Leo Spots as a blessing - I was positive they had not an ounce of personality! I spend my days reading up on anything gecko and the support I have has made it possible for me to play with such amazing creatures!

And since I literally have nothing but time, I'm hoping to indeed get my hands on a pretty bold to start some big beauties! Would any of you suggest mail order or have anything to say against it? The way my body has been feeling I'm not sure I'm going to make it out to the reptile show now and I'm really wary about buying site unseen....

 

[berlynne83]

And thank you, yes, your answers have been very helpful!

 

[cowana]

Sorry, to hear you are off indefinitely, but I'm glad you have found a passion in geckos to occupy your time.

I haven't personally shipped or received a gecko but I know plenty who do and they don't have any issues with it. I'd just make sure you are going through a reputable breeder with experience shipping.

You'd probably be best off starting a new thread with this question, though.