Natural Vivarium Update

[jakemyster44]

It's been quite a while since I've posted, but I just took a few new photos of my setup and thought I'd show everyone how my natural viv has been holding up. It houses my 1.1 normal pair. They breed yearly and she lays in the buried humid hide (under the rock pile). They have peacefully lived in their 50g breeder setup for several years now. The only precaution I take (other than the large tank with many hiding spots) has been feeding them from separate bowls at the same time. This pair is actually the first I have ever owned (almost 8 years old), and they are also the only pair that I have held onto since going to college.

Full Tank:

Left Side:

Right Side:

Female:

Male:

The rock pile they spend much of their time in/on:

Just a few random shots:

The plants have been doing great! I currently have two species of aloe and one haworthia. I have even been able to propagate several cuttings right in the vivarium.
One of the aloes (with new growth):

The haworthia:

Feeding time (note the separate bowls):

 

[Embrace Calamity]

This is very cool, but that female looks awfully skinny for breeding. =/ I'm curious about your choice on the 100% rock enclosure though. What made you take that route?

~Maggot

 

[jakemyster44]

Hello Maggot, thanks for the reply!
Both geckos tend to loose a bit weight over the winter. The tank gets slightly cooler and they eat less. When things warm up she has no problem packing on weight as seen in this picture from last summer:

I know that this can be a slightly controversial topic but I like to keep all of my herps under more natural conditions (to an extent). Based on the fact that they experience seasonal temp drops in their natural habitat, I allow the tank to cool slightly as well. Also, I would like to point out that breeding females in the wild are definitely below the "standard" 50g breeding weight in the hobby, however; I am also aware that wild individuals have a lifespan that is a fraction of that of captive geckos. To summarize my personal philosophy on captive care, I guess you could say that I like to keep animals in between the two extremes; one extreme being wild, slender geckos with a several year life span, exhibiting entirely natural behavior, and the other being captive geckos which are kept in optimal conditions year round, living into their twenties, and (IMO) losing quite a bit of their natural behavior. This "natural behavior" is the reason I enjoy keeping herps so much. I like to learn as much as possible about how my herps get by in the wild. Now, although I may be an advocate of wilder conditions, this isn't to say that I won't step in to help out an individual that is struggling. I suppose this is where experience comes into play, and I feel that I can accurately make the call. They have been doing quite well for seven years (as well as all their offspring), so I would offer that as proof enough that my method can work.
Sorry to go off on such a rant, I just wanted to be clear in my thoughts as I could easily see someone getting the wrong impression. Now, as for the 100% rock enclosure, I (again) wanted to create as natural of an environment as possible. Since, in the wild, leos live and feed among the rocks, I opted to go this route. In hindsight, I would definitely have used less of the golfball sized rocks for the substrate, and would have sunken large flat topped rocks into the sand/peat. I also would have used natural clay (packed down flat and sun baked) as a substrate. Luckily, the current setup is still effective and the geckos do just fine with the rocks.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I'm pretty sure leos live mostly in dirt and grasses (hence their coloration) with rocks littered about, not 100% rock, as can be seen here:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff147/AlbertaBredGecko/Leopard Geckos in the wild/IMG_2089.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff147/AlbertaBredGecko/Leopard Geckos in the wild/IMG_2094.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff147/AlbertaBredGecko/Leopard Geckos in the wild/IMG_2095.jpg

Not that I'm trying to argue or anything. It's just that my understanding is based on those pictures about their natural habitat, which is why my leo is kept on soil with some rocks and wood, as I prefer the more natural look as well. I was just curious about your rationale for the all-rock choice.

~Maggot

 

[jakemyster44]

Right. I guess I understood it that the geckos specifically hung around the rock outcrops themselves (such as those seen in your first picture), rather than in the open, sand/soil areas so I tried to make the tank representative of this. Basically I wanted the vivarium to be a "slice" of a rock pile where geckos would congregate in the wild. If I were to do it again, I would include a soil area for egg laying, and I would use clay as the actual substrate. The golfball sized rock "lawn" is certainly far from natural. Maybe replacing most of the area covered with the small rocks with hard packed clay would be the ideal setup? Too bad we don't have more information on the subject. Nice habitat pictures though, are they taken from "The Eyelash Geckos" book? I never got around to purchasing a copy. It seems to have a nice natural history section, huh?

Edit: Also, I'd be interested to see your setup, it sounds nice!

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I actually found the pictures on another forum (didn't want to post the link to the forum itself for fear of retribution from some overzealous mods). That's the book they cited though. I would love to own a copy, but I can't afford to spend any money on anything unnecessary right now. Someday when I have more than $1.28 in my bank account.

My enclosure is nothing fancy at all. It's pretty basic, mostly dirt with a few hides and such. You know, still got a Tupperware container for a humid hide. XD Hopefully someday I can get something bigger than the 20L and provide a much nicer setup. I've upgraded my croc gecko's and my snake's enclosures, so the leo will be next...eventually. I really do like yours and would love to model my own after it. I think it'd be absolutely perfect if the "lawn," as you say, was dirt instead. Where did you get the rocks from?

~Maggot

 

[jakehinds]

How could i go about getting something like that dirt shown in the pictures? Anybody know?

 

[jakemyster44]

I just printed off a few images of their natural habitat and brought them to a local stone yard (they sell tons of rock used for construction/landscaping). The employees were very helpful in pointing me in the right direction and I was able to take my pick from various types of stone. I just grabbed what I thought looked most natural. The smaller rocks were actually bagged up to be sold as "mulch", but they happened to match the colors perfectly. Everything was pretty cheap (~$30) too!
I'd really like to know for sure the true composition of their wild substrate. From pictures it seems to be more of a clay with sand/dust scattered on the surface than a soil (in the traditional sense). Those are just my thoughts. But we're definitely on the same page here, its always great finding someone who shares my passion for replicating the natural environment as closely as possible. After keeping geckos both in a rack system and in the natural viv, I would never go back to keeping geckos in the rack again. I find it much more enjoyable to watch them behave naturally than to keep them in a 9"x13" tub just to sit under the same plastic hide and pop out eggs...

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I agree that it does appear to be something more along the lines of a clay/dirt/sand mixture. I actually dug up (untreated) soil from the woods behind my house, which naturally has a lot of clay in it. Then I added a little bit of sand and a few handfuls of organic potting soil. It came out like this (excuse the size):

I do get crap from people sometimes for using loose substrate, but I'm not very concerned about it because I know it's natural for them to come in contact with it. She does dig sometimes too, and I like her having that option. I like all her natural behaviours. I definitely couldn't stand to have any of my reptiles in a rack system, though I understand the convenience for huge breeders.

~Maggot

 

[jakemyster44]

How could i go about getting something like that dirt shown in the pictures? Anybody know?

You might try digging up some clay from your yard (assuming you dont use pesticides, etc.) and while its still wet, just add a layer to the bottom of your cage and let it dry under the sun/light. Then take the clay that dried on the sides of your bucket and scrape it off resulting in a sand/dust substance which could then be sprinkled lightly on top of the hardened clay. I think its at least worth a shot, and would love to hear your results if you try it. That is exactly what I will do if I ever get around to remodeling my vivarium.

 

[jakehinds]

I actually haven't gotten it yet. I'm trying to decide what i want still. I'm looking at either a panther gecko or a leo as it will be my first gecko. I have a 20 gallon long that I'd house it in but i have a huge 67 gallon tall tank that I'd really like to use next to my russian tort. table but we'll see. I was thinking about using the 67 for the leo but i think it's too tall. its 36"Lx15"Wx29"H, what do you think? I'd make a styrofoam/great stuff foam with grout over it, probably only going up like halfway.

 

[jakemyster44]

I like the look of your substrate quite a lot, Laura.
Usually if you dig down a few feet, you will get to solid clay (which is also great for using under sand in fish aquariums too as it has lots of nutrients), this is what I would try to find. Either of the above methods would be great for your setup.

 

[jakemyster44]

I actually haven't gotten it yet. I'm trying to decide what i want still. I'm looking at either a panther gecko or a leo as it will be my first gecko. I have a 20 gallon long that I'd house it in but i have a huge 67 gallon tall tank that I'd really like to use next to my russian tort. table but we'll see. I was thinking about using the 67 for the leo but i think it's too tall. its 36"Lx15"Wx29"H, what do you think? I'd make a styrofoam/great stuff foam with grout over it, probably only going up like halfway.

If you already have the tank, then I say use it! It will provide way more ground surface area than a 20 long, even if it is unnecessarily tall. I'd recommend stacking rocks like I did with all sorts of gaps and caves (make sure they are stable!) along the back wall. A grout background would work well too, below is one I used to use in a 30g long (I just had a hard time getting it to look natural enough for my taste).

Here are a few others I made as well if it helps you out:

29g tall crested gecko tank background with planters

15g leopard gecko tank background with built in hides (removable lids)

In my experience though, you just can't beat mother nature. I like the way the rocks hold heat and release it slowly. Also, I'd recommend a leopard gecko over a panther gecko, not that they both aren't great starter geckos.

 

[jakehinds]

That great foam/ grout background looks great, but I'll probably just glue sheets of styrofoam together with grout and carve it out and silicone it in so it can be more easily removed. And i will use real rocks along with clay/dirt with the background. I'm getting excited haha. What I'm aiming for is a super realistic vivarium like the one with all the rocks, but some dirt too if they dont feel like clambering around on the rocks.

 

[jakemyster44]

That great foam/ grout background looks great, but I'll probably just glue sheets of styrofoam together with grout and carve it out and silicone it in so it can be more easily removed. And i will use real rocks along with clay/dirt with the background. I'm getting excited haha. What I'm aiming for is a super realistic vivarium like the one with all the rocks, but some dirt too if they dont feel like clambering around on the rocks.

The first background pictured is exactly what you described. Here are a few pictures of its construction:

These pictures are of the final stage of foam construction. I then coated the board with milk shake consistency grout for a few thick layers. I just attached some velcro strips to the back of the background itself and then to the aquarium glass, that way it can easily be removed for cleaning or incase you want to use the tank for different setups in the future.

 

[jakehinds]

Alright cool, thanks! At first i thought you said cover it with milk shake xDD but that velcro is a way better idea than silicone.

 

[jakehinds]

And i have another question. Since i need a UTH, which size should i get? the floor dimensions are 36x15"

 

[SC Geckos]

Here is a link to a video clip of an Eublepharis angramainyu in it's natural habitat in Iran.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=544182742267703

 

[jakehinds]

Cool video! Nice to see the only video out there lol. But do you think I should sell my 67 gallon and get a 40 gallon? theres one on craigslist for 55$. Hmmm..

 

[jakemyster44]

There's no issue in using the 67, and it will give you more freedom in designing the tank. In my opinion, bigger is always better. If I were you, I'd just stick with it, but a 40 would work no problem as well. As far as heating goes, if you have a thick substrate, an UTH will be a problem. You could put it on a back wall (vertical) near one of the caves, but you'd have to cut off the foam background in that section. I'd get the one meant for 50-60 gallon aquariums (that is how they are labeled for zoomed anyway). You might also try a ceramic heat emitter above the rock pile. Another idea woud be to get some heat cable and incorporate it into your foam background (testing would be needed, make sure it wont melt!) then grout over top of it. That way an area of the background itself would heat up. There are a few options here, you just have to find the one that works best for your setup. As long as you can have a few hiding places that remain around 95* during the day you'll be fine.