Need Help Trying Hard to Save a Rescue

[Topaz]

I will try to make this as concise as possible, yet there is a lot of background information on this leo that may be pertinent to the problem she is having.

Background
1. I am the 3rd owner in it's short life. I will call the owner I got it from owner #2 as that is who they were and the other one owner #1(who they got it from).
2. Female High Yellow, approx. 15 mths when I got it(Sept 1/09) and approx 50 gms.
3. Owner #2 had her for 7 mths(Jan 09 - Aug 09) and placed her in a tank with a 2.5 yr old male(they thought was female). She stated that when she got the female it was so thin and small it was almost weightless and had no tail fat. This female was then bred repeatedly from Feb-Aug 09 and laid 10 eggs. Once they realized they had a male originally they did not remove the small female. None of the eggs were viable, as well their shells appeared to be calcium deficient(when picked up to be moved to the incubator they dented).
4. Owner #2 could not get her to eat crickets so fed her exclusively on super worms, not gutloaded or dusted.
5. Both leos were kept on Calci sand and play sand, which was not cleaned regularly, it stank and had dead prey and feces in it.
6. Water was not changed regularly, it was stagnant.
7. Bags of crickets were thrown in the tank for the other leo and left there until they either, died, got eaten or multiplied. These started to eat the toe tips of this female.
8. The female had stuck sheds, which I carefully removed before they caused damage.
9. The female did not get to utilize the heat source as the male used it and the female cruised the tank all day long(as described by Owner #2).
10. Owner #2 stated that Owner #1 told them she would take the gecko out in all types of weather in her purse or pocket and take it to school all day long. Thus not allowing it to be a nocturnal animal or to have a heat source. I live in Saskatchewan Canada and in Oct - Dec are months that are very cold generally zero and below. Apparently Owner #1 was not gut loading the food source either.
11. Since I have had this Gecko(Sept 1/09) the following has changed.
-Own tank, 30 gallon long
-UTH not overhead heat, warm end kept between 92-95, cool end between 70-74
-Warm 1/3 has slate, cool 2/3 has paper towel
-Fresh water(city water that is allowed to sit for 24hrs to evaporate the chlorine) every couple of days if not daily
-Water is occasionally supplemented with Exo-Terra Electrolyte & Vitamin D3
-Slowly converted to crickets as the main staple of the diet
-All prey items are gut loaded with at the very least Flukers Orange Cube Complete Cricket Diet(Food, Water, Vitamins, & Spiruluna) and depending on the prey item it may have also been fed, potatoes, celery, bran, and strawberries.
-She is given either in a dish in the tank or on the prey item or both (almost all of the time) Flukers Calcium with Vit D3.
-I get her out of her tank approx. 1x a week for exercise around the house.
-Nov 10/09 weight 74 gms

Problem
Here is the run down of what I think is the most important recent happenings to get some help with as I think there may be something very wrong.
31/10 ate 8 crix
2/11 poop and urates, poop was partially black and moist and partially gray and dry
RAN OUT OF CRIX TILL 5/11
5/11 ate 4 crix
6/11 noticed a dark spot near left hip on under belly, palpitated it was hard, gave her a gentle massage and 15-20 exersize
7/11 poop and urates, poop was all gray and dry, so dry it crumbled when removed from enclosure
8/11 refused her crix, offered super worms as a treat, ate 9, they had been gut loaded with crix gutload, celery and potato. They were so moisture filled they squirted everywhere as she ate them, I figured that would help with the dry poop.
10/11 poop and urates, less than 1/2 her usual amount of poop or urates, poop was still gray and totally dry, crumbled upon removal.
11/11 did not feed her as she felt distended and had not pooped a decent amount after last feed. She passed urates only, less than what she had passed the day before. and it was only 1/2 the thickness.
12/11 urates only again, this time there was so little it would be measured in millimeters and the thickness it that of a piece of string. Gave her .03ml of NutriBac df, live reptile gut bacteria, much the same as human acidopholis, hoping it would help.
13/11 no urates, no poop. As well I just realized that since she has been with me she has shed every 14-20 days and it has now been 31 days with out a shed.

I am very concerned. I have never kept Leo's before, I have been doing all the research I can and can not find any help with this. I live in Saskatchewan and there are only 2 reptile vets in the Province, both of whom were not available today. The closest one is a 3 hr round trip, the other an 8 hour round trip. If she has to see a vet fine, she will BUT if there is something I can do for her great, or even if there is something I can and should do in the meantime(until a vet calls me back or she can see one). I am also on Geckosunlimited but got no response to my post about this there.

 

[Tony C]

The hard mass in her abdomen makes me think she may be impacted. Poor temps, dehydration, and sand are a bad mixture. Try soaking her in warm (not hot) water for an hour or two, that should help hydrate her and may stimulate her bowels. If she doesn't pass any feces while soaking, do a search for impaction here and you will find some other possible remedies. I hope you hear back from a vet soon, sounds like she could use a visit.

Just out of curiosity, what part of Saskatchewan do you live in? My Grandparents live in Rock Glen for about 6 months out of the year, I love going up there to visit.

 

[Topaz]

Well go figure I just get off the phone with one of the two vets in SK and then I get a call back from the Avian and Exotic Animal Hospital in Seattle Washington(I called them earlier out of desperation).

So the general consensus is that she is likely impacted(both the American and Canadian vet). It is most likely to have started during her time with the previous owners, while she was living on Calci sand and/or sand. Then it will have worsened over time since I have had her(I got her on Sept 1/09) because I originally continued to feed her super worms for almost the first month and then when I did get her switched to crickets they were the large ones. This is further supported by my having seen sand in the first few poops while she was here.

If taking that avenue I have been advised to try giving her soak bathes(both the American and Canadian vet) and give her a basking spot in her viv so that she can get dorsal heat as well as belly heat(Canadian Vet). I have also been told to add a large bowl or dish of water to her enclosure and put it near the heat lamp, so that it will create a much higher humidity than she currently has. This may also help with dehydration, she will absorb some of it through her skin, and when they live in the wild, their dens are dug into the ground which is damp not dry(Canadian vet). She may have come to me dehydrated from her previous living conditions(esp. with the water not changed regularly(both vets). As well the soaks may help with that as they can absorb some moisture through the cloaca(both vets).

That said there may be other issues as a result of previous bad husbandry, current husbandry conditions are excellent keep them up(both vets) but the damage may already be to far gone from the previous husbandry and premature breeding(both vets). Due to the former conditions and premature breeding there may even be kidney damage, which will not be reversible(American vet). This would have been caused by the lack of gut loading previously and the premature breeding depleting her body of it's needed vitamins and minerals.

I also learned that crickets can cause issues for our dear little Leo's in two ways. Number one, all of the reading including in Leo books has said do not feed crickets larger than 3/4 the width of the head of the Leo. Well I was advised tonight that the way to determine appropriate size is look at the Leo's head from nose to base of skull and then look at the cricket from nose to tail tip, the cricket should only be 1/2 - 3/4 the head length of the Leo, or your risk impaction from the cricket exoskeleton(Canadian vet). As well I was advised the it is healthier to feed appropriately sized cockroaches to your Leo as they can purge their own system of bacteria, worms and parasites and crickets are frequently loaded with them(American vet).

The Canadian vet I spoke with is hoping that if I can get her to poop by using the warm bathes and some over head heat and extra moisture in her tank, then hopefully the extra weight I have managed to put on her since I rescued her will pull her through this. If she can be saved, then I am to put weight on her until her tail is very nice and pump(Canadian vet).

The Canadian vet has said to try these home remedies and see how she is this next week and if I need to call back feel free and that she may need to come in if she does not poop or seem to improve. The American vet totally shocked me. They understood that I have only two reptile vets in my access and said that if I can even get my regular vet up here to take a fecal smear and do a regular exam, they would gladly talk to my vet and help them to help me out. They also said that if a fecal was done the results could be sent to them, it happens often and they would then call my vet and discuss what they found and what they suggest be done. They then took my full name and added it to my number and the details of the call and Leo's problem and entered it into the computer so that if I had to call back I did not need to talk to the same person, as anyone could access the file and know what was going on! Unbelievable, I have access to only two reptile vets, and they are in a different country and are willing to help me out and never so much as asked for a penny!!

 

[Stomlin35]

I just want to say WOW. The thorough background and even more thorough research in carrying for your gecko is amazing.

I can attest to the warm bathes helping out with impaction. My oldest gecko is a rescue off craigslist who had been kept on sand. It took a couple weeks but we managed to get her going. They were trying to feed her crickets, which she couldn't handle, so we switched her to small mealworms and upped the size as she got bigger. They also hadn't been giving her enough water, so we started misting her tank occasionally and changing water every morning. We use API tap water conditioner to zap the chlorine. Las Vegas tap water is saturated with chlorine...it tastes terrible

Keep us updated! I'd love to hear how your situation turns out.

 

[GeckoTrouble]

A good reptile vet is a great one... and this kind of support and consultation is a great sign!

I would give her worms to eat... easy to digest and lots of lovely moisture... plus is you feed them out of a bowl, little chance of them digesting something bad.

Apologies if I missed it, but what substrate are you keeping her on currently?
I would recommend newspaper, tile or reptile carpet (I personally use carpet).

 

[ReptarNDukeNukem]

A good reptile vet is a great one... and this kind of support and consultation is a great sign!

I would give her worms to eat... easy to digest and lots of lovely moisture... plus is you feed them out of a bowl, little chance of them digesting something bad.

Apologies if I missed it, but what substrate are you keeping her on currently?
I would recommend newspaper, tile or reptile carpet (I personally use carpet).

He said he was using 1/3 slate which is on the warm side and the other 2/3 paper towel.
I hope she makes it threw.It sounds that your husbandry sounds good.

 

[Topaz]

I will keep everyone updated and I am a she, my name is Tisha...nice to meet you all. Last night's bath after the talks with the vets and posting, result a dressmaker pin head size of urates only. She has had a lot of bathing today, and nothing. She has a pond added to her viv(the largest bowl I could buy for a snake to soak in) to add extra moisture to her viv. As well as an over head 50 watt red bulb for extra heat. As well I put a drops of olive oil on her nose for her to lick off(which she did) as I have no mineral oil.

Tonight I will give her more oil on her nose and I will give her a 75 watt red bulb as the 50 watt is not warming a spot for a basking spot as the vet suggested, nor does it seem to be creating extra moisture along with the pond I added. She has not had her exercise session yet today either.

 

[GeckoTrouble]

Thanks Dave... I had a feeling I had read it, but them couldn't find it again.

Topaz, I would get yourself a cheap hygrometer to get an idea of what the actual humidity % is. I know it can get quite high before there is increased condensation on the viv. You may also want to partially cover the top of the viv as a regular wire mesh lid will allow the moisture to escape.
If you can, get one of the vets to give you an RH% to shoot for. High humidity can also be bad for the geckos respiratory system, so too high for too long could also be a bad thing.

Kudos for everything you are doing for this rescue... also for the detail you provide in your posts... I wish everyone would go into such details as it would prevent a lot of time wasted on trying to find out basics.

 

[Topaz]

Gecko Trouble

Thx for the comment about the detail, I try to do that to save post having to be 200 entries long before we get to the important stuff and I am detail oriented. Each of my reptiles have a daily care log(excel spreed sheet) and it tells me almost any info a vet would need to know on their care if something goes wrong.

I do have a cheap zoo med hygrometer in the viv. It reads 50% humidity with the added pond, and the screen top almost completely covered over. Out of 100% of the screen top there is probably 20% or less that is open(including the spot where the 60 watt red bulb is). I moved up from 50 watt to 60 watt, as the basking spot was not even 85 with the 50 watt. When my hubby gives me back my temp gun he borrowed for checking the temp on the engine of his Traxxas RC car, then I can see if I will need to go up to 75 watts or stay at 60.

I have seen her at the large water bowl, drinking I think or soaking. Not sure as soon as I came in the room she ran and the water was wiggling around. She has had no food since Nov 8/09 so I was thinking maybe she is not passing anything because of lack of intake? I offered her a silkworm(I could only get one, my pet store bought 10 for someone else, they did not want them and then 9 died) and 3 wax worms, hoping that because those worms have no exoskeleton and are very moisture filled, maybe it would help her and she could pass them. I guess if she throws them up she definitely is impacted and if not but still does not pass excrement of any kind then it must confirm the vets other suspicion that something else might be wrong due to the bad husbandry, lack of supplementation and premature breeding before I got her.

 

[Topaz]

16/11/09 UPDATE....
Well all the soaks, massages, exercise, olive oil on the nose and lips and the very moist meal must have worked. She loved the very large, very juicy silkworm and loves the juicy soft wax worms as well. This am she had a urate in a separate spot from a poop that was black, partially moist even after sitting under the heat lamp and another poop(extremely small in another spot). Each poop was almost nothing but exoskeletons! So I fed her 5 more wax worms to keep getting moist food into her and see if we can clear every part of this impaction out and get her back to excreting everything in one shot like she is supposed to. Still has the large pond in her viv. Humidity reads only 43%, can't be right that dial must be out, can't see it getting less humid with a large pond added and the top of the screen cover almost completely covered.

 

[GeckoTrouble]

This is great news!
Hopefully this marks her turning a corner on the path to health

I would grab a digital hygrometer (mine came from a walmart and was only a couple of bucks, I'm sure you have an equivalent store) you will get more accurate readings than with the dial ones.

Please keep us informed

 

[Topaz]

Thx GeckoTrouble for the info on the digital hygrometer, as dumb as it sounds I knew about the digital thermometers but not hygrometers...I have a mini Walmart in my small city will see if they carry them if not will go to the hardware store.

Definitely will keep everyone posted. Thank you again for your support and well wishes.

 

[Topaz]

17/11/09 UPDATE.....

So this am I checked on her and voila we have urate and poop in one combined movement!! The poop is very black now and quite soft, it is still full of exoskeletons but also some other softness(for lack of proper terminology).

Another exciting sign this am is that she was willing to give me *&^% when I picked her up and gave her a thorough checking over. In the past since I received her she would "yell" at me if I held her in a way she did not like. Boy was it nice to get "yelled" at this am!:laugh4:

As well she has almost no dark line running through her underbelly anymore. I am assuming that was food backed up in her intestinal tract. I am not 100% sure but I think the swollen pear shape to her belly is reducing as well. She was very happy to receive another 5 squishy wax worms this am. Hopefully by the end of the week she will have no dark line left in her under belly at all.

I have ordered more silk worms for her but man they are expensive, $16 for 10 here! and I can not feed her continually on them. I will use them and wax worms until I know she totally clear of the impaction and has put on proper tail fat.

Does anyone know where I can read an nutritional analysis of silkworms. My husband will not allow me to switch her to cockroaches, he is afraid of them getting loose in the house. I guess I will have to try to get smaller crickets. Hard to do here, the one place that carries them seems to only carry either pinhead ones or large.

That's all for today.

 

[GeckoTrouble]

What about mealworms.

There are many breeders who keep their entire stock on these for years with much success.

I personally feed a staple of mealworms, superworms and the occasional cricket

 

[Topaz]

Well Super worms was all she would eat before and I switched her because the nutritional analysis I read said they have to much phosphorus to calcium ratio. As well they have a harder exoskeleton(can lead to impaction) which she has had some trouble with once before(not sure if it was because she had the sand in her or not). I did wonder about mealies as they are so much smaller and I wondered if they had a bit softer of an exoskeleton?

Any ideas/opinions on this??

 

[GeckoTrouble]

I would say that the impaction was caused by a variety of things as you have listed, and not just by one thing.

With the correct set up, not breeding etc etc, I don't think there would be any reason why she would have problems with mealies or supers.

I would not suggest feeding her ONLY supers. Rather a mixed diet of 3-4 different kinds of bugs.
Waxworms tend to be fattening for geckos and are kinda like gecko cocaine. So once she is better I would say to only give them occasionally. Then you can feed a combination of mealies, supers and crickets in between

 

[Topaz]

ok thx for all the help and ideas.....another question of you don't mind.

If I can get her health settled and weight fixed up do you think it would be ok to allow her to breed this up coming season? Feb 2010ish?

 

[GeckoTrouble]

I am not a breeder myself.
But I would be inclined to give her a good year to recover. February is only a few months away

 

[Topaz]

Sounds very reasonable, that was what I was kind of thinking, I had just been asked by a couple of people if I was going to breed her this coming season. Now I will definitely tell them no!