New Gecko's - new feeders help please

[acharpenter]

I adopted 3 Gecko's Tuesday the 9th; all are about 1.5-2 years old.

1 female - tiny - about 3.5-4" snout to end of tail
1 female - medium - about 5.5" snout to end of tail
1 large male who I have since found a new home for

I do not have a gram scale at the moment but will be ordering one shortly.

The gal I adopted them from threw 30 med/large crickets in the tank once a week or so. She also threw in mealworms and wax worms - all roaming free.

When I picked them up she had about 10-15 crickets and a couple mealworms roaming free in the tank (also noticed at least 1 beetle when tearing the tank down).

She also had the UTH on the side of the tank rather than the bottom. He studio ambient temperature stayed in about the 76-80 range.

The gal said in the last couple days before I picked them up, that the little girl was having problems eating the crickets. Said she would grab them in her mouth but then would shake her head a little bit and let the cricket go without eating them.

While there I observed her catching 2 crickets but when she went to chew them - they would escape from her mouth.

Once home I thoroughly cleaned out the tank and allowed the crickets to remain for the time being. Moved the UTH to the bottom of the tank (this is where the gal’s hang out non stop since re-homing them).

I placed the little girl in an ice cream bucket with 2 crickets (one med and one large) - within about 5 minutes she caught one and ate it. Later she tried to eat the other. She caught it, had it fully in her mouth and chomped a couple times but then spit it back out (it was still alive at that time).

I have since started a Dubia roach colony and have weeded out the Crickets.

I place 8 Dubia's in a Tupperware dish within the cage for them every other day (along with 3-4 mealworms). I have been doing this since Monday and have not seen them go after any. I had them in a clear dish at first and the medium gal would sit outside of it and do her “hunt mode” head bob. After a day like that none of the roaches were eaten so I moved them to a smoke container, thinking the clear one was confusing them. Same thing, none were eaten.

Today, I dropped one right in front of the medium gal and she caught and ate it right away. I tried the same thing with the little girl but she didn’t see it or didn’t care.

I then placed the little gal into the ice cream bucket with one and she still didn’t notice it or care. She did just shed last night and there is/was still some on her tail and toes at the time so not sure if that has any effect as to her not caring about eating.

I have since placed her into her wet hide and was able to observe her picking at the remaining shed.

Side note - the medium gal is ready to shed now as well

Questions are:

Should I be worried about either gal with regards to their eating, (or lack thereof) behaviors thus far?

Is it just too soon to be expecting them to be hungry after their re-homing?

Is it ok to replace their Cricket diet with the Dubia's cold turkey?

Do you think they are having a problem locating the roaches in the dish?

I may very well be just paranoid here, but I wanted to pose the situation to those with more experience than I

I have only had Geek since January or so.....and he ate right off the bat after I got him....

Big thanks in advance for any assistance

 

[Fencer04]

Sounds like you just need to give them some time. I'd refrain from feeding the little one for a couple of days and then try again.

 

[Wowoklol]

I don't think I'd be real concerned but you do want to get that scale so you can monitor weight. Sometimes hard to tell is animal is losing weight or not. I['d say its pretty normal for having been jostled around recently, new environment, new feeders. Although I will say, it didn't take my girls long to switch to roaches. Have them in an opaque container and they go through quite a few per day. I didn't see how big the roaches are you are feeding.. Make sure they aren't too big. Also maybe try dusting them if the geckos are used to having their meals dusted. Might help them recognized the new roaches as food items. Sounds like maybe they are too happy about finally being warm to care a whole lot about food? Heh.
http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/
I've seen these scale recommended on another message board. I'd give them a good look if I had to order a new scale.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

If you can avoid changing feeders for a couple more weeks, it would give the girls more of a chance to become acclimated to their new home and surroundings, then gradually introduce new feeders as they become willing to accept them. Since they're small for their age, I would feed them mostly what they have become accustomed to, and get their appetite up. Too much change at one time can be counterproductive. Also, they need a parasite test since feeders had been left to free range and eat poop. No loose feeders should remain beyond feeding time, which may be anywhere from 15-30 minutes for them to eat their fill. The little girl with a shed issue should be able to easily pick off her old skin if you give her a shallow warm soak for 15-20min.

 

[M_surinamensis]

The gal said in the last couple days before I picked them up, that the little girl was having problems eating the crickets. Said she would grab them in her mouth but then would shake her head a little bit and let the cricket go without eating them.

While there I observed her catching 2 crickets but when she went to chew them - they would escape from her mouth.

The usual disclaimers go here; I'm not a vet, I'm not diagnosing anything, descriptions are no substitute for firsthand observation, pay attention to my thoughts at your own risk, management is not responsible for lost or stolen articles, please keep arms and legs inside the car at all times.

What you described there is a bit of an anomaly. She's displaying feeding behaviors, interest in prey items, hunting, catching... but is not finishing the process by swallowing the food. It's less common than the kind of anorexia usually seen associated with stress or with most medical conditions that affect the digestive process. Usually when there's a condition which leads to not-eating, the behaviors alter right along with it.

Statistical outliers always exist, but it's a lot less usual and it might be a useful indicator of the underlying problem. Stress generally triggers behavioral anorexia. Parasite loads, digestive upset (like low enzyme production), impaction and so forth... they're usually going to interrupt hunting behaviors. Grabbing a prey item and then not swallowing it is a different kind of symptom.

My suspicion would lead me to investigate the possibility of injury or infection in the mouth. I'd take a look inside it, checking for obvious symptoms like swelling, bleeding, missing teeth, discharges or buildup and discoloration. Depending on what, if anything, I found there's a good chance I'd go see a veterinarian. 'course I could be dead wrong and the inside of her mouth may appear perfectly normal, in which case it all defaults back to gathering additional information and double checking other possible causes.

There are some... home remedy... kind of common sense steps that a lot of herpers who are experienced with the condition and who feel comfortable judging the severity will sometimes take when confronted with minor infections. I'm always sort of torn on the subject of sharing what those steps are, mostly because some people will interpret (and some people will recommend them as) them as a substitute to veterinary care, which I don't think is appropriate or responsible. Even though they end up being pretty much the same instructions given by most vets, most of the time, for most conditions.

It's evident that you're an intelligent person who is rapidly assimilating information, but at this juncture I think you're still better off seeking professional assessment for medical concerns. When you've seen it twenty or thirty times, you might feel comfortable thinking "A granular white discharge with a moderate accumulation along the gum line and minimal swelling, I'll just do _________, like the last time." but prior to that direct experience* the best thing is generally going to be to list symptoms as you see them with as much accuracy as possible, then go see a vet.

A veterinary visit is a pretty good idea for all new animals shortly after acquisition anyway though. Proper quarantine includes a medical check-up and a couple fecal examinations to start the countdown clean and it establishes a sort of baseline that you can use to measure all future changes against.

*which you may never get, ideally will never see often enough.

 

[acharpenter]

Thank you for everyones replies - much appreciated!

I don't think I'd be real concerned but you do want to get that scale so you can monitor weight. Sometimes hard to tell is animal is losing weight or not. I['d say its pretty normal for having been jostled around recently, new environment, new feeders. Although I will say, it didn't take my girls long to switch to roaches. Have them in an opaque container and they go through quite a few per day. I didn't see how big the roaches are you are feeding.. Make sure they aren't too big. Also maybe try dusting them if the geckos are used to having their meals dusted. Might help them recognized the new roaches as food items. Sounds like maybe they are too happy about finally being warm to care a whole lot about food? Heh.
http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/
I've seen these scale recommended on another message board. I'd give them a good look if I had to order a new scale.

None of the Dubia's I use for feeders are bigger than 1/2". I will try to get a pic tonight of them next to the girls for referernce

Thank you for the referral and link to the gram scales - is there any specific one recommended over another?

If you can avoid changing feeders for a couple more weeks, it would give the girls more of a chance to become acclimated to their new home and surroundings, then gradually introduce new feeders as they become willing to accept them. Since they're small for their age, I would feed them mostly what they have become accustomed to, and get their appetite up. Too much change at one time can be counterproductive. Also, they need a parasite test since feeders had been left to free range and eat poop. No loose feeders should remain beyond feeding time, which may be anywhere from 15-30 minutes for them to eat their fill. The little girl with a shed issue should be able to easily pick off her old skin if you give her a shallow warm soak for 15-20min.

I will pick up some Crickets tonight for them in the meantime in case they just need some of thier old food to get through the stress of thier move.

Any thoughts on providing Crickets and Dubia's over a timeline of say a week or do you think more is necesarry to wean them off Crickets?

I did end up giving her a warm soak and used a Q-tip to get the skin off her toes and most of her tail. She still had a little bit on her underside near her vent and although she had no problem with the Q-tip on her toe's and end of tail - she started to get a bit uppity when I tried to rub it off her underside so I placed her back in her wet hide to get the rest off on her own.

Hopefully when I check on her tonight - she will have the rest taken care of.

The usual disclaimers go here; I'm not a vet, I'm not diagnosing anything, descriptions are no substitute for firsthand observation, pay attention to my thoughts at your own risk, management is not responsible for lost or stolen articles, please keep arms and legs inside the car at all times.

What you described there is a bit of an anomaly. She's displaying feeding behaviors, interest in prey items, hunting, catching... but is not finishing the process by swallowing the food. It's less common than the kind of anorexia usually seen associated with stress or with most medical conditions that affect the digestive process. Usually when there's a condition which leads to not-eating, the behaviors alter right along with it.

Statistical outliers always exist, but it's a lot less usual and it might be a useful indicator of the underlying problem. Stress generally triggers behavioral anorexia. Parasite loads, digestive upset (like low enzyme production), impaction and so forth... they're usually going to interrupt hunting behaviors. Grabbing a prey item and then not swallowing it is a different kind of symptom.

My suspicion would lead me to investigate the possibility of injury or infection in the mouth. I'd take a look inside it, checking for obvious symptoms like swelling, bleeding, missing teeth, discharges or buildup and discoloration. Depending on what, if anything, I found there's a good chance I'd go see a veterinarian. 'course I could be dead wrong and the inside of her mouth may appear perfectly normal, in which case it all defaults back to gathering additional information and double checking other possible causes.

There are some... home remedy... kind of common sense steps that a lot of herpers who are experienced with the condition and who feel comfortable judging the severity will sometimes take when confronted with minor infections. I'm always sort of torn on the subject of sharing what those steps are, mostly because some people will interpret (and some people will recommend them as) them as a substitute to veterinary care, which I don't think is appropriate or responsible. Even though they end up being pretty much the same instructions given by most vets, most of the time, for most conditions.

It's evident that you're an intelligent person who is rapidly assimilating information, but at this juncture I think you're still better off seeking professional assessment for medical concerns. When you've seen it twenty or thirty times, you might feel comfortable thinking "A granular white discharge with a moderate accumulation along the gum line and minimal swelling, I'll just do _________, like the last time." but prior to that direct experience* the best thing is generally going to be to list symptoms as you see them with as much accuracy as possible, then go see a vet.

A veterinary visit is a pretty good idea for all new animals shortly after acquisition anyway though. Proper quarantine includes a medical check-up and a couple fecal examinations to start the countdown clean and it establishes a sort of baseline that you can use to measure all future changes against.

*which you may never get, ideally will never see often enough.

Anomaly = I know what you mean - this is why I have been rather confused as well. Both of their mannerisms are normal hunting behavior to some extent - just rather off in finishing the process of catching and eating something. There are so many different factors here...new food, new home, UTH finally correct, different substrate (from paper towers to repti carpet) etc...its just too hard to narrow down.

In this case, since they are new and have been previously housed improperly (in my opinion anyway) - I agree with the vet idea. I also agree with my general lack of experiance at this point. I know I will feel much better after having the vet check them out anyway.

Made an appointment for them for Monday - will gather up what ever scat I can the day before and day of the appointment. Is there a proper way to store this for the trip to the vet?

PS - Seamus...You forgot to say fasten your seatbelts in your disclamier : )

As always and as usual - thanks to everyone for your help!

 

[acharpenter]

Little girl (Cricket) needed another little soak to get the rest of the shed off of the base of her tail and inside back leg. She did much better tonight and I think I got it all.

Medium girl (Pepper) is currently in the wet hide shedding.

I moved the Dubia roaches to a much smaller dish to hopefully allow them easier access. The first one was about 4 x 4 x 2" high. Then new one is about 3 x 2 x 1.5" high

I took some pics showing the new dish in the tank and the old one sitting outside for size reference. I am not going to disrupt them for a size comparisan pic tonight as they are both dealing with shedding stress.

If you look in the last pic - you can see Cricket's snout poking out of the rocks to the left

 

[Wowoklol]

Ooo that stacked rock hide makes me nervous if its not glued together!

The reptile people I know are using one of these several models:
http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/veterinary-pet-scales.aspx

Specifically the 3001 line. Which indicates a capacity of 3000 grams.

 

[acharpenter]

Nope no worries on the rocks - I make sure they are solid!

Dr.Ault was wonderful as usual. Her first question when she came in was asking how Geek was doing. : )

She checked Cricket for lungs, mucus, eyes, parasites and said all is clear and looks good.

She sent me home with some Prescription A/D to force feed Cricket. Said to give her a lil bit maybe 3 times a day to get her weight up. Said Cricket may get her appetite back if we maybe just jump start it with the A/D.

Said with all the changes recently she thinks its stress but to monitor her and try to get her some nourishment with the A/D for the time being.

She also took a look at Pepper then said she was not going to charge me for her as she said Pepper was just along for the ride as far as she was concerned.

She is on vacation next week so she gave me her home phone number in case anything comes up = wow!

I have observed Pepper catching the Dubia's out of the dish over the weekend so she is all good. Now to make sure lil Cricket is good. Picking up a scale tommorow.....

 

[acharpenter]

The girls had a hard day - I dont see them out together like this often.

Cricket just had some more A/D about 30 minutes ago....

These pics should give you an idea of thier size

 

[acharpenter]

Well - since my last post - I have been able to observe Cricket hunting and losing Dubia's - but also hunting and finishing them.

I have come to the conclusion - she may just be a little shy.

I finally picked up a gram scale. After I recorded my kids' weights - I called the vet to get what they recorded at the time they were seen. I think I am doing something right based on the numbers....everyone is happy!

Geek on his vet visit 4/6/11 = 60 grams
Geek on 06/10/11 = 73 grams

Cricket on her vet visit 05/23/11 = 20 grams
Cricket on 06/10/11 = 26 grams

Bambi on 06/10/11 = 53 grams
Nothing earlier to compare her to. The vet looked at her and said she looks good, fat and healthy. Bambi is also the female that is still laying egg's from the male she was housed with. I checked her underside tonight - she appears to have 2 more coming soon.

The male has been gone for over a month and she has laid 2 egg's since then - she has another 2 in her....not sure what that does to her weight. Cricket laid one since I rehomed him. In all honesty both girls are pretty small and should not have been with a male......what do ya do ..? Saved them off a Craiglist post....

In any event - everyone is healthy - gaining weight and happy.

I am super happy as well

BIG THANKS TO GF.NET for helping me and my Gecko's as a new owener

SUPER BIG THANKS to Kelli - for providing this forum!!!

 

[acharpenter]

Girls are totally on Dubia's now. I finally found a small, clear glass bowl to house their food in at feeding time. Small enough for the girls to get into, clear for them to see into and steep enough the Dubia's don’t get out of (that I have observed anyway). I think the one’s I have found roaming free are the one’s Cricket tries to eat that escape…..

Cricket is totally chowing and gaining weight. I observe her eating no problem. Most of the time Pepper lets her eat first (or Cricket eats first due to the fact that her hangout is on a rock next to the feeder bowl so she sees them first). Either way - Cricket is eating.

Sadly I have decided to rehome Pepper as after all my reading, I just keep worrying something will go wrong sooner or later. It’s also harder to track feeding, scat etc with more than one in an enclosure. They are still both a just little over 1 year old so their adult temperament has not come into play yet and I worry that when it does - there will be issues.

Bright note is that Pepper will be going to live with the home I found for the male she was paired with. They are super excited to take her! Super plus is that they are good friends of mine and I will see Pepper and Dude (the male previously rehomed) regularly. I already get tons of pics weekly - they have the Gecko addiction already!!!

Here is a pretty cute video of Pepper and Cricket at mealtime tonight - enjoy!

P.S. - you can see what I was describing about Cricket (in the first post) not being able to hold the food in her mouth a few times and the Dubia just crawls out. She gets them eventually - just takes her a few tries....

Click for video: