NEWB with conerns - Help Dog Shrink!

[ncbeast]

NEWB with housing concerns

Originally Posted by ncbeast
OK, I am new at this and bought a year old male off of craigslist and have the 10 gal set up just like the previous owner. The leo looks very healthy, about 7" long and a very fat tail. Have a UTH on the far right side and a regular 75 watt soft white bulb on that side that runs for 12 hours. Stick on dial thermometer half way up the back wall on that side read about 92 during the day and I about 70 at night. Bought a proub thermometer and have it on the floor right over the UTH and under the wet box and during the day it stays around 87 and then 77 at night on the floor. There is a red cfl 13 watt that is on all the time as will (just so it does not have to have a timer or have to manually turn it on when the day light bulb turns off, no heat from it though). Oh yeah the substraight we are using is just think brown paper cut to fit the bottom. Previous owner was using paper towels but we wanted something that looked more like his natural envirnment so we found a big rool of this paper in the paint department at Wal-Mart. We cut out additional squares for the poop corner and just replace that when needed. Afraid if we put tile down the heat would be even less so we are sticking with the paper in this tank.

The moment the day light bulb turns off (red light still on) he comes out from his cool hide and goes to the warm hide, and stays on that side most of the night climbing around a little and laying on his belly and in the moist hide, all on the warm side. As soon as the day light bulbs come on in the morning he goes to the cool hide and stays there all day sleeping.

I am thinking this is pretty normal but have read that I may need to just get rid of the 75 watt day light bulb because it could hurt his eyes and cause stress but am afraid it will not be warm enough without it. I do not want to do too much to this tank because my son is saving money to set up a 55 gal. divided and should be doing that next month or 2and we will buy a good Cobra UTH.

We have only had him a week and he is not very active at night but we are trying to keep everything the same as the previous owner hoping not to stress him too much with the change.

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From Dog Shrink:
A 75 watt incandescent bulb is much too bright for a leos sensitive eyes. I would suggest nothing more than a 15-25 watt. The fact that he hides fromthe "day bulb" reinforces this theory. Also 87 is not hot enough. 93-95 minimum needed for proper digestion and metabolism.

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From NCBEAST:

Thanks Shrink, so i need to get rid of the 75 watt day bulb. I have the digital probe under the moist box now right over the UTH but without the 75 watt bulb the floor only gets to about 85-87? My house this time a year is 65 at night and 68-70 during the day. This is a 10 gal and not sure the brand of UTH. Have the tank on a folded towel on my son's dresser so no air movement under the tank and UTH. Would it help for the mat to get warmer if I put some wood under the tank to raise it up? I have learned I need to do that anyway for safty. Or maybe a piece of tile would help to hold some of the heat? Just need a tempary fix for this tank, will be upgrading the tank soon and will be getting a better UTH. Oh yeah, how about the red cfl that we are using at night, is that ok? Thanks for all of the help, learning more everyday.

 

[ncbeast]

Guys, anyone can help with this if you would like. Right now just trying to get by with the set up I have. I removed the white 75 watt bulb and will just use the natural light in the room during the day and still want to use the red cfl for viewing if cfl does not put off any harmful rays.

I think the highest the hot side floor is going to get now without the light is going to be 87. Maybe adding some tile or slate to the warm side and raising the whole tank with some 1/2" wood strips and maybe some foil covering the heat mat underneith and/or maybe some foam board under it will help raise the floor temp to 95...

At work now but I bet he stays on the warm side today since he is not blinded by the light....

 

[Jordan]

if im perfectly honest, i think ALL lights are unnecessary for leo's. A good UTH that can reach the desired temp is all that is needed for them.

 

[Daedric1]

Since this thread is titled in a way that it is addressed towards one person helping you, I am less inclined to help, but...

If the temperature of your UTH keeps the floor temp at a max of 87 (and low of 77), it sounds like your UTH is a pretty crappy one. The floor temps on the hot side should hardly vary dependent on time of day - only the air temps should do this.

The best answer is to buy a new UTH. You're going to need one anyway.

Reptiles are sluggish when they're cold, so that's probably part of the problem. Your nighttime temps are also on the extreme low end for leopard geckos. So, ditch the red viewing bulb and get a 60W red bulb that provides some heat. That will help the air temperature and the leo really won't mind it (since they can't really see it anyway).

 

[Jordan]

Since this thread is titled in a way that it is addressed towards one person helping you, I am less inclined to help, but...

i felt the same.

Im pretty sure Kel would be here to help regardless of havng her name in the title.

then again..
i suppose i didnt help much anyway.

 

[ncbeast]

Thanks for the help and have edited thread tittle. The temps really swing with the 75 watt bulb we were running during the day and he would never go over there. That bulb is gone and it looks like the floor on the hot side is going to stay between 83-87 with the UTH. I think this is due to the swing in room temp day/night. Going to try the foil tonight and tape it over the UTH to see if it will radiate a little more heat up through the glass. Also have some left over ceramic tile that may fit but not sure if that would help or hurt right now since it would add another layer. Also read on this site that you can cover the top hot half of the screen top to try to hold in some of the heat, might try that as well since we will already be playing with the foil. Like I said we are just try to get by another month when my son will upgrade the tank to a 40 gallon that we plan to divide in half and we will get a good Cobra UTH and even thinking on getting the one for 50-60 gallon since it is 28 watts and 17" X 11" and will give each side a 5 1/2" X 17" of hot side and 12 1/2" X 18". My son is working hard saving the money and getting $$ for his birthday in a couple of weeks. Then we plan to use this tank for the crickets and maybe try to breed some roaches.

 

[Dog Shrink]

He just titled it the way he did because I requested he move it from another thread so that we didn't hijack that thread. He just wanted to make sure I saw it

Anywho... there are several things that could be addressed here that I have addressd in other threads so how do you feel about me just linking you to those insted of re-writing it all over again m'kay?


Regarding the use of tiles in the tank as substrait:

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=68916

that thread also touches on lighting and supplimenting heat that your UTH might not be making. Honestly I think that one thread covers just about everything you were wondering.

 

[ncbeast]

[/QUOTE]
Regarding the use of tiles in the tank as substrait:

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=68916

that thread also touches on lighting and supplimenting heat that your UTH might not be making. Honestly I think that one thread covers just about everything you were wondering.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I have done a lot of searching today and have read a lot of your posts including these. So when I got home today it was 87.9 so i went to work. Took everything out and flipped the tank over. The UTH is a ZooMed 8 watt. Took some heavy duty foil folded in half and taped it covering the whole pad. Flipped the tank back over and just left it dirrectly on the towel for now because I am afraid if I do raise the tank to get air flow I will just lose more heat. Put my brown paper substraight down and rearanged the tank a little. Water, calcium and hide on the cool side. Moist home made (for now) wet box in the middle and warm hide on the right over the UTH. I taped the probe down right in the dead center of the UTH and red cfl over the warm side.

After about 3 hours the temp is up to 90.1 on the floor and 80 half way up the back wall so i got a little out of it and maybe it will get a little more with more time.

Not sure I want to put anyting else in to it right now unless it is free like the foil. Hopping this will get us by another month until we upgrade the tank and the UTH.

 

[Dog Shrink]

If your heater is an 8 watt it should be cutting it, mine is a 7 watt 6x11 cobra so 8 watt should put out more heat even tho it is a zoomed but I could be wrong. Cobra uses all copper wire for consistant heat, can't say the same for zoomed. I know my son has a zomed on his python's tank and it is larger than mine but doesn't seem to heat as well but that could also be because his tank is a slate botton 1960's style aquarium and natural slate is going to dissipate/dysperse the heat thru the entire slate surface rather than heat 1 particular spot so I know I'm losing heat that way.

Something else I was thinking is that you should insulate the sides of your tank with some heavy cardboard since you don't want to buy anything just yet as well as the back of the tank. You lose a lot of heat thru the glass when it isn't insulated.

This is an image of the "plastic styrofoam that you see me referr to a lot in my posts... it is actually more like a material, yu need to cut it with a knife and can't just break it apart. It's about 2 inches thick and is usually packed in higher end stereo equipment or TV's. My hubby's company uses it packed in the boxes with their oil meters when they ship them out. It's not typical styrofoam that you can pick apart and breaks into little beadey chicklets.

It's really dense but as you can see also quite porous so it allows the mat to breathe. I have a piece of this holding up my cobra mat (since they're not adhesive) but no where else under the tank. I also have a piece on either side of the tank going almost all the way up to the top except for the last couple of inches to help with natural lighting. I arranged Eros' tank a little last night. Decided to run his uth the width of the tank under his hot hide insted of the length and between the mat and the 50 watt moonlight bulb I was at 102 this morning (Woops). I know it wasn't because the house was warm, we don't even have our heat on yet so the house was likely 60-62 degrees-ish.

Maybe if you could find something similar at home depot or lowes or somewhere that sells packing materials that would be better than the foil as it does breathe and would allow air flow while at the same time properly directing your heat upwards. I use the same thermometer you do funny huh. I think the only other difference that helpsme maintain heat is I use a lot of natural shale stone in my enclosure. Here's a pic of my tank just to give you an idea (if you haven't already seen one):

If you look closely at the sides of my tank you can see the black styrofoam insulating it.

As you can see a LOT of natural stone, it helps hold the heat in the tank better imo. The floor is vinyl simulated slate tile so it's plastic which makes less heat dispersment and makes more of a hot spot. It has some thermal value, more than paper and will hold the heat better imo.

Aside of that hon I'm kinda running out of ideas. I don't think having the towel under the tank is doing you any favors because the uth does need to breathe,You do need some air flow for proper operation. I'm sure these mats have some type of internal safeguards to prevent them from over heating and you may be tripping that with the lack of air flow. Maybe taking a smaller towel and some 1x2 slats to support under the side edges of the tank would be a better idea than the entire thing sitting on the towel. Hopefully when you upgrade to the large tank you invest in the cobra heat mat, preferably the ultratherm model not the T-Rex model so you get the higher wattage for the same size mat, and that resolves a lot of the issues you're having. I know my moonlight bulb was under $6.00 so that investment could be well worth it in the meantime until the other tank is ready.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

 

[ncbeast]

Last night before going to bed noticed the end of the probe to the thermometer was still not firmly touching the floor again but was reading 90.1....I took the flat rock that you can see in the picture in the front and just put the very tip of the probe under it to make sure it held it down and the paper to the floor. Woke this morning and checked and it was 97.6....yeah!!! The temp reading from the dial gage halfway up the back wall was about 75 and that should get better during the day. Guess I still need to raise the tank on some wood slats or something and get rid of the towel to get some air movment under there to prevent the UTH from over heating. But isn't taping the foil over the UTH preventing it from breathing as well? Might also see if I can find a 15-20 watt white or clear bulb today just to suppliment the ambiant temp and provide a little light so he will know it is day time and just leave the red cfl on all of the time. Is a clear bulb ok?

 

[fl_orchidslave]

The probe really needs to be directly on the floor, even 1 inch up will give a lower reading.

 

[ncbeast]

The probe really needs to be directly on the floor, even 1 inch up will give a lower reading.

I thought that is what I explained with the previous post when I stated I placed a rock on the tip of the probe to hold it to the floor?

 

[Dog Shrink]

From my understanding the tipof the probe needs to be unobscured. The rock would skew the reading I think since the rock will hold teh heat, it could be an inaccurate reading of what the actual floor temp is. Insted of usign scotch tape on tehprobe neck to hold it down, try a piece of electrical tape. I found that works really well. Also I would use a soft white, soft pink, or regular white low wattage bulb not a clear. That puts out harsh light rather than diffused light. A 15-20 watt bulb will add about 2-3 degrees of temp to your tank. Also you can look at apppliance bulbs or vanity bulbs to try and find teh lwoer wattage bulbs if you're having a hard time finding a 15 watt.

 

[ncbeast]

Well, crap....thought I had it...I guess I can kind of see the false reading with the rock, it is just right on the tip not even an 1/8"....the tape did ok it is just with the collar it did not allow the end of the probe to touch the floor. Guess I could put something under, behind the collar to raise it and that would lower the end of the probe to touch the floor then tape it down....

Before you answered this time I went to Lowe's and just got back with a 6" piece of 1" X 2" that I will cut up and glue on the bottom ends of the tank to raise it up a little for air flow for the UTH. Found a 25 watt GE Reveal bulb (looks light blue) and a 7 watt with a standard base night light bulb. In the 7 watt they had clear and white and I got the clear, again before reading your post maybe it will be ok since it is just 7 watts or should I take it back and get the white one?

I am still hoping I can get the UTH working enough and just want the lights for viewing and for him to know the difference in night and day.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I wouldn't use the blue reveal bulb as I thought they might have some UV value to them,

From GE's site on the reveal bulbs:
"GE Reveal bulbs make colors "pop" in a way they don't with standard incandescent bulbs.

What Makes GE Reveal® Incandescent Bulbs Different?

GE Reveal bulbs make colors "pop" in a way they don't with standard incandescent bulbs.

Why? The rare earth element neodymium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium that's in the glass. (It's what gives these bulbs their distinctive blue color when unlit.) When these bulbs are lit, the neodymium provides a pure, clean light by filtering out much of the dulling yellow cast common from ordinary light bulbs."

The night light with the standard end should be frosted hon. I think that is your better bet for lighting. You want to make the light as diffused as possible. Sorry... I tried to get this up fast for you. Also you don't need to glue the 1x2 onto the ends of the tank, I just have mine resting on them and it's completely stable. Also I don't have my probe tip directly pointing on the floor of the tank. I just laid it flat on the floor and taped the collar down well with the elect. tape.

Lastly you said that you're using a red cfl bulb? CFL = Compact Flourescent Lamp, CFL bulbs put out amounts of UV light. "Do compact fluorescent lamps give off Ultraviolet (UV) light?
Compact fluorescent lamps give off a minimal amount of UV light." http://www.tcpi.eu/more-about-energy-saving-compact-fluorescent-lamps-cfls (about 3/4 of the way down the page you can find that quote). Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using a light that gives off any UV value for leos.

 

[ncbeast]

Ok, back to Lowe's on my way home and will take the Reveal bulbs back and the clear 7 watt. Looking online and called the store close to the house they have some regular 15 watt bulbs...http://www.lowes.com/pd_76501-3-100...lb&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=15+watt+bulb and 25 http://www.lowes.com/pd_33242-3-158...lb&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=25+watt+bulb and http://www.lowes.com/pd_76502-3-105...lb&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=25+watt+bulb, the store I went to at lunch was remodeling and I did not see these. Might just get the 15's and 25's just to play with. So these will not hurt their eyes?

I was going to glue or silicone the wood strips just to keep my son or anyone accidently knocking it off the dresser or even off one of the strips could crack the tank.

OK back to the probe, if yours is not actually touching the floor how are you getting an acurate reading where the Leo walks and lays?

 

[Dog Shrink]

The tip is only actually like 1/8-1/16th of an inch off the floor. I'll take a pic and post it for ya so you have a visual idea. Eros isn't gonna like being disturbed mid day but I'll do it anyway just for you

That's the one I use >>> http://www.lowes.com/pd_76501-3-10069_0__?productId=1260229&Ntt=15+watt+bulb&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D15%2Bwatt%2Bbulb

Ok I just took a ton of pix for you so what I'm gonna do is simply start a new thread with all the pix just in case anyone else had a similar issue and this pictorial may help them as well. I'll title it "For NCbeast (and others) hot hide set up" ok?

 

[ncbeast]

The tip is only actually like 1/8-1/16th of an inch off the floor. I'll take a pic and post it for ya so you have a visual idea. Eros isn't gonna like being disturbed mid day but I'll do it anyway just for you

That's the one I use >>> http://www.lowes.com/pd_76501-3-10069_0__?productId=1260229&Ntt=15+watt+bulb&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D15%2Bwatt%2Bbulb

You do not have to disturb him, I know what you mean because that is the way I had it but it was not touching the floor so i thought that would not be acurate enough.

How about the temp half up the tank (ambient) temperture? Dial gauge halfway up the back wall read 75 this morning with the floor 97.1 (rock still holding down very tip of probe)and it is about the same now (son just got home from school and is telling me). So it did not change much even though the house temp went from 65-70.

 

[Dog Shrink]

To be honest with ya I don't monitor the ambient temps :main_lipsrsealed: but I did put that other thread together for ya, just to give you an idea of how I put mine together in hopes it may help you (or some one else with a similar problem). I don't think the rock holding down the probe is a great idea hon. I wouldn't want anything obscuring the chances of getting an acurate reading and I believe the directions even say not to place anything directly on the probe end. The other pictorial thread is in the housing section (obviously)