Pure Enigmas

[Halley]

Hey I know that a plain enigma sort of has a calico coloring to it. I decided I wanted to breed just to get a calico gecko, just like there are cats. However I don't want to have to worry about genes showing in my enigma lines. So I was wondering if all of you could help me figure out what all the genes in leopard geckos are, so I can test breed, and get a truly pure enigma.

Here is the list I have so far.

Tremper Albino
Bell Albino
Rainwater Albino
Super Snow
Blizzard
Patternless
Eclipse Eye
Enigma
Gem Snow
Blue Tail
Giant
Emerine

I know not all of these are proven traits, but anything you can tell me would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Doli]

Could you please send photo of blue tail?

 

[Halley]

Could you please send photo of blue tail?

Here are a few pictures, as well as some info about Blue Tails. As you can see they have a light blue tail. Imagine what that could look like, after some line breeding.

http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Blue_Tail

 

[Halley]

Well does anybody have any I missed? Post if you think I have them all too, that way I know, I do. Just say I think you have them all, or something. Thanks everybody, in advance.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

There are well over 200 different combo morphs of leopard gecko.
The only way to prove an Enigma is not carrying any hidden genes is to test bred.

 

[Doli]

Thanks, I thought, that you have your own Blue Tails. These are in breed of my friend in Czech.

Here are a few pictures, as well as some info about Blue Tails. As you can see they have a light blue tail. Imagine what that could look like, after some line breeding.

http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Blue_Tail

 

[Halley]

There are well over 200 different combo morphs of leopard gecko.
The only way to prove an Enigma is not carrying any hidden genes is to test bred.

Yeah, I know there is a ton of combos, I was just wondering about all the pure genes. Then I will definetly test breed the male, and then breed it to a wild caught blood line gecko from gecko etc. Then test breed the offspring for the traits that the father had, and then when I finally get a pure enigma, breed that to a wild caught blood line gecko, and cook for female. Then breed the male, and female that I know are pure, together, and then I can start the project.

 

[godzillizard]

If you want a pure Enigma you can get them from the Bells--they produce Bell enigmas, Tremper enigmas, and non-het Enigmas--it would take longer than any gecko lives to breed it to all the different traits to prove it non-het...maybe I'm not understanding exactly what your asking???

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I do not believe that the Bells could promise you that any Enigma that they were to sell is 100% not het for any other traits.

They only potential hidden genes to worry about are the basic simple recessive traits.
The 3 strains of albino
patternless
Blizzard

 

[Nigel4less]

Technically speaking Nick, not to ruin your fun once you breed an Enigma to a Normal WC E. Mac Mac. it seems like that would dilute the Enigma trait. So if your goal was a calico colored gecko I guess the Enigma would be the way to go but Enigma to Enigma seems like the Most realistic shot of producing it.

 

[Halley]

it would take longer than any gecko lives to breed it to all the different traits to prove it non-het...maybe I'm not understanding exactly what your asking???

There are comb traits that I would breed it to, to test for a few traits at once. Such as a raptor, for eclipse eye, and tremper, etc. I would also use a male, so I could do it all in one year.

Technically speaking Nick, not to ruin your fun once you breed an Enigma to a Normal WC E. Mac Mac. it seems like that would dilute the Enigma trait. So if your goal was a calico colored gecko I guess the Enigma would be the way to go but Enigma to Enigma seems like the Most realistic shot of producing it.

I don't think I get this. Wild Caught don't really have genes. Do they? Well at least ones that affect appearance. Skyes sells them as clean sheet, and I know they are used for genetic testing. They shouldn't really interfere with that appearance of a trait, should they? If I breed a tremper, to a WC, and then the offspring back together. That wouldn't make the tremper gene, appear different would it? If so, how come?

I guess the main thing that I’m worried about, is making sure I have a complete list of genes? Do I, can anybody think of any other genetic traits that I missed?

 

[Nigel4less]

I`m not sure if you have Seen A&M's Fascio Enigma crosses they almost look nothing like Enigmas more of a Hypo looking appearance.

 

[Halley]

I`m not sure if you have Seen A&M's Fascio Enigma crosses they almost look nothing like Enigmas more of a Hypo looking appearance.

Are you talking about the anti-tang that they posted? Also why would they lose spots, the wild caught have them? I'm not trying to argue, I’m just wondering. Also was it WC bloodlines what they crossed them with?

 

[Nigel4less]

Of course it was WC bloodlines.

 

[Halley]

Of course it was WC bloodlines.

What was the project that they where working on, and am i correct, that it was the anti-tang?

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

No, the anti-tang was my Bell albino Enigma Ghost.

 

[paulh]

I don't think I get this. Wild Caught don't really have genes. Do they? Well at least ones that affect appearance. Skyes sells them as clean sheet, and I know they are used for genetic testing. They shouldn't really interfere with that appearance of a trait, should they? If I breed a tremper, to a WC, and then the offspring back together. That wouldn't make the tremper gene, appear different would it? If so, how come?

I guess the main thing that I’m worried about, is making sure I have a complete list of genes? Do I, can anybody think of any other genetic traits that I missed?

Here's a link to a list of morphs that may help you make your list.

http://hermansherps.co.uk/page3.html

Wild caught geckos do have genes. When a wild caught is sold as a clean sheet, it simply means that the seller assumes, without testing, that all of the WC's genes are normal genes. With normal meaning the most common gene in the wild population at each location in the genome. When a Tremper albino is bred to a WC, the babies are not Tremper albinos in spite of having one copy of the Tremper albino mutant gene. The babies look normal because the WC parent provided the normal version of the Tremper albino mutant gene to pair with the Tremper albino mutant gene.

As WCs are sold without genetic testing, you have no guarantee that a given WC is not heterozygous Tremper albino (for example).

Jeremy Letkey is right when he says that you only need to worry about recessive mutant genes lurking in the genetic background in heterozygous gene pairs. Any dominant or codominant mutant genes, such as Mack snow, can be eliminated from the project by inspecting the starting animals. Except enigma, of course, which is a dominant mutant gene, as far as I know.

I assume that you want to produce a purebreeding line of enigmas. That would involve breeding enigma X enigma, raising the enigma babies, and then mating enigma x normal. Any such mating that produced normal babies would not have a pure enigma parent. Look for such matings that produce at least seven babies, and none of the babies was normal. The enigma parent in such matings has a greater than 99% probability of being pure enigma.

I don't know whether this project will produce the calico look you want, but it sounds like a fun thing to do. Good luck.

 

[Halley]

Wild caught geckos do have genes. When a wild caught is sold as a clean sheet, it simply means that the seller assumes, without testing, that all of the WC's genes are normal genes. With normal meaning the most common gene in the wild population at each location in the genome. When a Tremper albino is bred to a WC, the babies are not Tremper albinos in spite of having one copy of the Tremper albino mutant gene. The babies look normal because the WC parent provided the normal version of the Tremper albino mutant gene to pair with the Tremper albino mutant gene.

As WCs are sold without genetic testing, you have no guarantee that a given WC is not heterozygous Tremper albino (for example).

Yeah I figured there might be genes lurking in there, as you say. However I figured it would be my best bet. Just as a quick question. What do you guys think would be best, to make my own normals, for Mack x Mack, or to do the wild caught. I will do the test breeding, as I really want an enigma that has no other genes in them. I don't think it would upset me to much either, if my pure enigma had a new mutation occur in them.

 

[paulh]

What do you guys think would be best, to make my own normals, for Mack x Mack, or to do the wild caught.

I don't have a strong preference either way. As my old granny used to say, "Six of one and half a dozen of the other."

 

[Halley]

"Six of one and half a dozen of the other."

I like that.

I think I will go with wild caught, and test breed for all know recessive traits. Then I will be more than delighted, if I find a new gene of any sort in the WC lines.

And the most important thing, did I seem to get all of the genes. Let me know, if I did or I didn’t. Either way helps.