Ranting..about geckos

[Spots]

Ugh I love my geckos..but sometimes I wish they had just a little bit bigger of a brain!

1. Can they sense where water is? Because I bought two waterfall things where it's like a bottle of water upside down that slowly lets water out so I could go away for the weekend and not have to worry about water. And they never drink from it. Today I was misting around and water droplets formed on the cage and my geckos ran to it and licked it like they have never had water before! So I kept going until they finally stopped (10 mins later..literally! They were that thirsty). So I replaced the water tower thing with bowls of water and they've been sitting by it ever since. By why didn't they find the water tower? If they were THAT thirsty, why didn't they just lick around and sense out the big water tower that was right infront of them? I feel bad now knowing that they couldnt find the water but I'm also confused about it.

2. My girl has yet to eat...after a full month..she refuses to eat. (It's a topic on another forum). After countless vet visits, xrays, enemas, medications...she still will not eat. So I've still be feeding her A/D from a syringe. But I will be leaving for a week and hopefully she will eat the worms in the tank on her own..otherwise she will be a hungry baby
and my other girl has decided that she is too good to eat from the bowl. She always ate from it but now she doesn't even realize that it's supper. She will stare at them in the bowl but then walk away. I have to put them infront of her for her to eat it.

*Sigh...why can't owning a pet be as stress free as watching them?

Thanks for letting me rant...feel free to add your suggestions. I know I put this in general discussion and not ranting but that's because I wanted to see if anyone had any input about the water thing. I do love them so much though I could just sit infront of the tank all day and stare at them if someone would pay me to!

 

[fl_orchidslave]

How did they get so spoiled?

 

[GeckoGathering]

Geckos, ahhhhh

Ugh I love my geckos..but sometimes I wish they had just a little bit bigger of a brain!

1. Can they sense where water is? Because I bought two waterfall things where it's like a bottle of water upside down that slowly lets water out so I could go away for the weekend and not have to worry about water. And they never drink from it. Today I was misting around and water droplets formed on the cage and my geckos ran to it and licked it like they have never had water before! So I kept going until they finally stopped (10 mins later..literally! They were that thirsty). So I replaced the water tower thing with bowls of water and they've been sitting by it ever since. By why didn't they find the water tower? If they were THAT thirsty, why didn't they just lick around and sense out the big water tower that was right infront of them? I feel bad now knowing that they couldnt find the water but I'm also confused about it.

2. My girl has yet to eat...after a full month..she refuses to eat. (It's a topic on another forum). After countless vet visits, xrays, enemas, medications...she still will not eat. So I've still be feeding her A/D from a syringe. But I will be leaving for a week and hopefully she will eat the worms in the tank on her own..otherwise she will be a hungry baby
and my other girl has decided that she is too good to eat from the bowl. She always ate from it but now she doesn't even realize that it's supper. She will stare at them in the bowl but then walk away. I have to put them infront of her for her to eat it.

*Sigh...why can't owning a pet be as stress free as watching them?

Thanks for letting me rant...feel free to add your suggestions. I know I put this in general discussion and not ranting but that's because I wanted to see if anyone had any input about the water thing. I do love them so much though I could just sit infront of the tank all day and stare at them if someone would pay me to!

A read When Time may relieve some stress.
....Brain Size.., etc. comments.
Non paying sit down, except gecko knowledge.
Take care. HJ
http://www.mrmercieca.com/uploads/5/1/0/4/5104198/gecko_body_and_function.pdf​

 

[Jellybean]

I never even bother with meal worms, I just dump 8 to 12 crickets and my lizards go on the hunt. The larger one will even come out of his cage in anticipation when I open the roof of his cage and he sees the crickets in the bag above. Never had any problems with mine finding water either. I would never sit there with a baby and feed it by hand or with tongs. If it can't figure out how to eat on its own thats just too bad. These lizards need to learn how to survive on there own and when you teach babies the improper way to be fed at such a young age it can have long lasting consequences as they get older aka never learning how to hunt for their food. One of the reasons I hate meal worms so much is because it makes catching food to easy for them. With crickets mine have to chase them down and learn how to hide and pounce. I am sure people may think this method is cruel, but in the wild God doesn't stick his hand down with a prong and slowly wiggle meal worms in from of their faces. If they can survive in the wild hunting much more elusive insects, then they sure as heck can in a 20 gallon cage.

 

[M_surinamensis]

1. Can they sense where water is? Because I bought two waterfall things where it's like a bottle of water upside down that slowly lets water out so I could go away for the weekend and not have to worry about water. And they never drink from it. Today I was misting around and water droplets formed on the cage and my geckos ran to it and licked it like they have never had water before! So I kept going until they finally stopped (10 mins later..literally! They were that thirsty). So I replaced the water tower thing with bowls of water and they've been sitting by it ever since. By why didn't they find the water tower? If they were THAT thirsty, why didn't they just lick around and sense out the big water tower that was right infront of them? I feel bad now knowing that they couldnt find the water but I'm also confused about it.

They evolved in an area where standing water is rare. Standing water that does exist in those areas draws other, predatory, animals. As a species, they're well adapted to obtaining moisture from food and to opportunistically taking advantage of temporary sources, such as dew or condensation in an underground hide. Their instincts for seeking water follow suit. While the same potential exists in each animal, the specific behaviors displayed, the instincts which are triggered, can vary based on the stimuli they are confronted with. If the conditions favored drinking standing water, your geckos would drink standing water. I'd take an educated guess and say that there's likely some seasonal variable that triggers or retards the instinct responsible for it, and that the conditions in your enclosure are such that they're not showing the behavior you desire but seasonal triggers can potentially be complex to manipulate and I sort of get the impression that you may not have the tools required to measure everything that you'd need to before you set out to modify it.

2. My girl has yet to eat...after a full month..she refuses to eat. (It's a topic on another forum). After countless vet visits, xrays, enemas, medications...she still will not eat. So I've still be feeding her A/D from a syringe. But I will be leaving for a week and hopefully she will eat the worms in the tank on her own..otherwise she will be a hungry baby
and my other girl has decided that she is too good to eat from the bowl. She always ate from it but now she doesn't even realize that it's supper. She will stare at them in the bowl but then walk away. I have to put them infront of her for her to eat it.

Anorexia in reptiles will have an underlying cause, something that is preventing them from having or acting on a normal appetite. You're treating a symptom, but are you addressing the reason that symptom exists?

I would never sit there with a baby and feed it by hand or with tongs. If it can't figure out how to eat on its own thats just too bad.

Failure to thrive thresholds are an interesting discussion. Opinions will vary.

These lizards need to learn how to survive on there own and when you teach babies the improper way to be fed at such a young age it can have long lasting consequences as they get older aka never learning how to hunt for their food.

That however, is just a statement that is abjectly ignorant and completely wrong. You have no clue how reptile behaviors are triggered, no idea what their capacity for learning is and really should consider educating yourself on the subject before you come to any conclusions surrounding it. Your premise, that statement above- you are simply incorrect in every way that it is possible for you to be incorrect.

I am sure people may think this method is cruel, but in the wild God doesn't stick his hand down with a prong and slowly wiggle meal worms in from of their faces. If they can survive in the wild hunting much more elusive insects, then they sure as heck can in a 20 gallon cage.

In the wild they are interacting with an environment that they have specifically evolved a place in, where the temperatures, humidity, barometric pressure, light intensity and duration are always right, the prey species are always the ones they recognize, the predators behave in predictable ways that they have evolved some defenses against, the entire world is composed of places to hide and they are a perfect fit in their ecological niche.

In a twenty gallon cage, a human being is responsible for all those things. If the human being gets it wrong, the gecko is going to suffer for it. If the environment is off, if they are being unduly stressed by interaction, if they have parasites or diseases that they are constantly being re-exposed to because of the closed proximity.

I am a herpetoculturalist who likes recreating little slices of an animal's natural environment when I choose to keep them in my home. I am a sometimes breeder who prefers wild appearances. I am fascinated by evolutionary results, by the ways in which a species has adapted to the environment around it, as part of it. I am a strong proponent of recognizing failure to thrive animals and humanely euthanizing them in order to promote positive traits in the captive population.

I am also well aware that the threshold for success in a captive animal is not identical to what it is for a wild animal. Everything shifts in response to a radically different criteria for what it means to be a successful individual.

I am also aware of the fact that we, the owners, control every minute detail of what a captive animal experiences. Everything they encounter, every condition they are in, every success story and every health problem- ultimately it is our responsibility. A responsibility that needs to be met before we can begin to label animals as failure to thrive cases, before we can call them weak or defective we need to ensure that we have taken the necessary steps that allow them to be healthy and successful. Anything else is premature.

 

[Jellybean]

They evolved in an area where standing water is rare. Standing water that does exist in those areas draws other, predatory, animals. As a species, they're well adapted to obtaining moisture from food and to opportunistically taking advantage of temporary sources, such as dew or condensation in an underground hide. Their instincts for seeking water follow suit. While the same potential exists in each animal, the specific behaviors displayed, the instincts which are triggered, can vary based on the stimuli they are confronted with. If the conditions favored drinking standing water, your geckos would drink standing water. I'd take an educated guess and say that there's likely some seasonal variable that triggers or retards the instinct responsible for it, and that the conditions in your enclosure are such that they're not showing the behavior you desire but seasonal triggers can potentially be complex to manipulate and I sort of get the impression that you may not have the tools required to measure everything that you'd need to before you set out to modify it.



Anorexia in reptiles will have an underlying cause, something that is preventing them from having or acting on a normal appetite. You're treating a symptom, but are you addressing the reason that symptom exists?



Failure to thrive thresholds are an interesting discussion. Opinions will vary.



That however, is just a statement that is abjectly ignorant and completely wrong. You have no clue how reptile behaviors are triggered, no idea what their capacity for learning is and really should consider educating yourself on the subject before you come to any conclusions surrounding it. Your premise, that statement above- you are simply incorrect in every way that it is possible for you to be incorrect.



In the wild they are interacting with an environment that they have specifically evolved a place in, where the temperatures, humidity, barometric pressure, light intensity and duration are always right, the prey species are always the ones they recognize, the predators behave in predictable ways that they have evolved some defenses against, the entire world is composed of places to hide and they are a perfect fit in their ecological niche.

In a twenty gallon cage, a human being is responsible for all those things. If the human being gets it wrong, the gecko is going to suffer for it. If the environment is off, if they are being unduly stressed by interaction, if they have parasites or diseases that they are constantly being re-exposed to because of the closed proximity.

I am a herpetoculturalist who likes recreating little slices of an animal's natural environment when I choose to keep them in my home. I am a sometimes breeder who prefers wild appearances. I am fascinated by evolutionary results, by the ways in which a species has adapted to the environment around it, as part of it. I am a strong proponent of recognizing failure to thrive animals and humanely euthanizing them in order to promote positive traits in the captive population.

I am also well aware that the threshold for success in a captive animal is not identical to what it is for a wild animal. Everything shifts in response to a radically different criteria for what it means to be a successful individual.

I am also aware of the fact that we, the owners, control every minute detail of what a captive animal experiences. Everything they encounter, every condition they are in, every success story and every health problem- ultimately it is our responsibility. A responsibility that needs to be met before we can begin to label animals as failure to thrive cases, before we can call them weak or defective we need to ensure that we have taken the necessary steps that allow them to be healthy and successful. Anything else is premature.

Until you provide published studies backing up your theory over mine, do not come into this thread discrediting what I have said. I have raised about 20 leopard geckos over a 10 year period and not once have I ever had any issues with any of them. You might want to read a few published studies on operant conditioning of animals, and the impact they have on animals ability to later learn/habits. You may also want to look up the reasons why captive animals are usually never successful at being reintroduced in the wild, because they have never learned the correct way to hunt for their food. Hand feeding a baby assuming it is perfectly healthy and is suffering from no other conditions(ie correct environment, parasite free, etc) can potentially harm its ability to adapt to a different method of feeding. Babies being the most susceptible because they are at a critical learning period.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Edit: Removing the entire post. Today is not a day I want to spend yelling about the differences between mammalian and reptile behavior models with a person who clearly won't comprehend what they're told anyway. Suffice it to say that Jellybean is completely wrong and lacks all credibility, their above post should be ignored by anyone who wants reliable information. That's about what I've got at the moment which won't end up making work for the moderators.

 

[TokayKeeper]

They evolved in an area where standing water is rare. Standing water that does exist in those areas draws other, predatory, animals. As a species, they're well adapted to obtaining moisture from food and to opportunistically taking advantage of temporary sources, such as dew or condensation in an underground hide. Their instincts for seeking water follow suit. While the same potential exists in each animal, the specific behaviors displayed, the instincts which are triggered, can vary based on the stimuli they are confronted with. If the conditions favored drinking standing water, your geckos would drink standing water. I'd take an educated guess and say that there's likely some seasonal variable that triggers or retards the instinct responsible for it, and that the conditions in your enclosure are such that they're not showing the behavior you desire but seasonal triggers can potentially be complex to manipulate and I sort of get the impression that you may not have the tools required to measure everything that you'd need to before you set out to modify it.

Seamus, you're the closest thing to being a hero right now for saying the above - I know not how many times I've said similar, though in fewer words. FWIW, something tells me that leos being desert species equates to barometric pressures cueing the geckos for imminent precipitation. I'm not versed in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, or NW India's seasonal weather, but something tells me a possible variable in that of a monsoon plays a roll; I know it does for wild Eublepharids that live 2.5 hours away from where I currently call home. Outside of times when we're lacking precipitation, the above cues are times where I'll heavily mist my leopard gecko, and other desert species, tanks. I'll mist, usually lightly, even when we have a front come through that doesn't yield precip. What's further amazing are the behaviors I observe amidst New Mexico's monsoon season and the native herps I do keep.

 

[M_surinamensis]

FWIW, something tells me that leos being desert species equates to barometric pressures cueing the geckos for imminent precipitation.

Barometric pressure has an impact on day/night temperature swings, condensation/dew and morning fog effects as well, so I suspect you're on to something.

I was honestly thinking a bit broader, speculating on the idea that more gradual seasonal changes (like high and low temperatures, availability of prey type and light cycles) might lead to altered water seeking behaviors, but barometric swings is an idea with a lot of merit. I've witnessed pressure systems altering animal behaviors myself- also not in the areas leopard geckos originate, but with native species as well as some of my pets from various places around the world.

It's a reasonable hypothesis and it's also something that few pet owners will measure as a variable which makes it a prime candidate for an observed behavioral aberration which hasn't already been thoroughly explained by something that is commonly measured.

Kinda makes me wish I had some leopard geckos to collect a little bit of statistically insignificant but interesting data with. I've got a barometric chamber (of sorts, I built it myself) lurking like a giant, ominous thing in the corner of my basement that I used to use to stimulate gamete production in tree frogs. Which uh... also makes me a bit self conscious for not thinking of it myself, so thanks for that.

 

[TokayKeeper]

It [barometric pressure] is one of a few variables alterna hunters will use to decide where or when to cruise for them out in west TX. Unfortunately, I only have 2 alterna under my field herping belt; 1 being found in NM on a cloudless night and the other being found just within El Paso County after a small rain storm.

However, going with your broader thinking, it all ties neatly together if you sit back and think about some of those variables you mention. I'm not so certain highs and lows play much of a roll other than letting species capable of brumation that times are a changing, but possibly tied in with extended photoperiod may equate to innately triggering some cue of, "hey, monsoon season's approaching!" Or if not a monsoon season, at least a shift in weather patterns.

Personally, I wish I could go field herping for leopard geckos. Something tells me it'll be exactly like looking for Coleonyx here in New Mexico, and if so, it'd shut the door on the sand debate. :main_rolleyes:

 

[NinjaDuo]

Edit: Removing the entire post. Today is not a day I want to spend yelling about the differences between mammalian and reptile behavior models with a person who clearly won't comprehend what they're told anyway. Suffice it to say that Jellybean is completely wrong and lacks all credibility, their above post should be ignored by anyone who wants reliable information. That's about what I've got at the moment which won't end up making work for the moderators.

+1
don't fret! Or antagonize him. I got a warning today, because of the lack of knowledge I pointed out. Hopefully I won't get flagged again by Kelli. But M_surinamensis I agree with you! Just trying to help you not get in trouble... I got way frustrated earlier and went off on this same guy.

 

[roger]

+1
don't fret! Or antagonize him. I got a warning today, because of the lack of knowledge I pointed out. Hopefully I won't get flagged again by Kelli. But M_surinamensis I agree with you! Just trying to help you not get in trouble... I got way frustrated earlier and went off on this same guy.

Hey Ninja you are not the only guy who got flagged.When I first joined up I got dinged for going after a troller.the longer u are on here the more u learn to think b4 u type LOL.By the way M_surinamensis doesnt need your help or mine.he'll be fine LOL

 

[NinjaDuo]

I know, but it was tactical back up from one troll fighter to another

 

[Holly12]

Until you provide published studies backing up your theory over mine, do not come into this thread discrediting what I have said. I have raised about 20 leopard geckos over a 10 year period and not once have I ever had any issues with any of them. You might want to read a few published studies on operant conditioning of animals, and the impact they have on animals ability to later learn/habits. You may also want to look up the reasons why captive animals are usually never successful at being reintroduced in the wild, because they have never learned the correct way to hunt for their food. Hand feeding a baby assuming it is perfectly healthy and is suffering from no other conditions(ie correct environment, parasite free, etc) can potentially harm its ability to adapt to a different method of feeding. Babies being the most susceptible because they are at a critical learning period.

Jellybean I could not agree with you more you ROCK!!!. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Jordan]

Jellybean I could not agree with you more you ROCK!!!. :main_thumbsup:

You Kidding!?!?! ... M_surinamensis has been around much longer than jellybean and his knowledge is much more developed and superior, he doesn't need published work to prove anything, if he is right then he is right...

I mean he may not always be right (im yet to find any point where he has not been) but he's pretty much always right.

And 'Operant Conditioning' ... lol! ... you mean what Pavlovs dog type experiments? ... i doubt it works the same on leo's. I doubt ringing a bell every feeding with them will get them to jump to the front their cage with their mouth open.

 

[NinjaDuo]

You Kidding!?!?! ... M_surinamensis has been around much longer than jellybean and his knowledge is much more developed and superior, he doesn't need published work to prove anything, if he is right then he is right...

I mean he may not always be right (im yet to find any point where he has not been) but he's pretty much always right.

And 'Operant Conditioning' ... lol! ... you mean what Pavlovs dog type experiments? ... i doubt it works the same on leo's. I doubt ringing a bell every feeding with them will get them to jump to the front their cage with their mouth open.

+1 again lol

 

[LateNightGrubber]

I am not too sure about ringing a bell to get a hungry gecko out of his/her hide for supper. However, if you can find an audio clip of Michael Buffer's ''Let's get ready to rumble'' and then ring that bell......it will be Frazier and Ali all over again.

 

[Adinar]

You Kidding!?!?! ... M_surinamensis has been around much longer than jellybean and his knowledge is much more developed and superior, he doesn't need published work to prove anything, if he is right then he is right...

I mean he may not always be right (im yet to find any point where he has not been) but he's pretty much always right.

And 'Operant Conditioning' ... lol! ... you mean what Pavlovs dog type experiments? ... i doubt it works the same on leo's. I doubt ringing a bell every feeding with them will get them to jump to the front their cage with their mouth open.

+1

 

[Holly12]

LOL Jellybean has been raiseing leos for a very long time I will listen to her befor I will listen to M-Surinamensis or listen to you Jordan. So I am going to say this I have the right to my oppinon if you don't like it move on let's not argue and act like a bunch of little kids shell we?.

 

[Jordan]

LOL Jellybean has been raiseing leos for a very long time I will listen to her befor I will listen to M-Surinamensis or listen to you Jordan. So I am going to say this I have the right to my oppinon if you don't like it move on let's not argue and act like a bunch of little kids shell we?.

Listen to who you want. We are just trying to point people in the right path. Unfortunately jelly bean seems to be doing the opposite.

And just out of interest, jellybean may have bred longer than me (though from her/his answers it doesn't seem like it), but do you know how long M_surinamensis has been a herpetologist? Do you know the extent of his studies and knowledge?

We all do that's why we listen to him.