Sold to me as 'Bubblegum', ID help?

[discoverlight]

Here are pictures of the so called 'bubblegum' boy I rescued. He's on dewormer meds because his poop is runny and his tail is very small

So he's apparently a mix of rainwater, bell, and tremper albino? Does that seem accurate to you guys? If not, could someone help ID him?

 

[GeckoDan.]

Here are pictures of the so called 'bubblegum' boy I rescued. He's on dewormer meds because his poop is runny and his tail is very small

So he's apparently a mix of rainwater, bell, and tremper albino? Does that seem accurate to you guys? If not, could someone help ID him?

View attachment 71574 View attachment 71575 View attachment 71576

There's conflicting views on this "morph". Its impossible to cross the albino strains and get a hybrid. That is because the strains happen at different alleles, therefore, you'd get a normal leopard gecko. That's why I believe this isn't a real morph and rather a different cross that people aren't aware of.

 

[Neon Aurora]

It's not impossible for two forms of albinism to expressed at one. For example, if you crossed a bell and a tremper and got wild types het tremper and bell, you could cross the babies and have a chance of getting bell trempers.

Anyways, I really don't know. It would be hard for anyone to tell you if it is expressing two at once, if it just albino het another strain of albino, or if it's just an albino that someone called a bubblegum.

 

[discoverlight]

Really any guesses would be fine, like I dont really mind it not expressing 2 things at once, but does it look similar to any albino morph? I just really want to know what it could be classified as by what it looks like? patternless albino? something like that?

and the other reply, what do you mean by a cross? Does that mean it's not even a morph, just a bunch of genes mixed together? Please expand on your thought, I'd love to know :main_thumbsup:

I wasn't aware of any cross breeds with leos, and im not sure of any other cross that would make such a light coloration.

 

[Neon Aurora]

I'm not particularly good at guessing... Perhaps DiAmoroso can chime in on that part. If I had to guess, I would guess it is a tremper albino. I guess this only because trempers are very common, and I don't trust anyone who says they're breeding "bubblegums" to know enough about genetics to understand/put the effort into actually breeding two generations selectively to create such a thing. They may have just been calling it a bubblegum so that it would sound cool and it would sell.

Anyways, all I meant by cross is breeding them together. So if you bred a bell albino and tremper albino, you would get wild types het tremper and bell. If you bred the babies together, you would have a chance of getting tremper bells. I don't want to write out all the possible outcomes, so here is a picture of it from a calculator http://i.imgur.com/KYwxEbE.jpg As you can see, it turns into a big mess. The babies could be bell, or tremper, or both at the same time.

For information's sake, a "morph" is just a particular morphological (form and structure, including color in this case) type in an animal. Really, all morphs are just a bunch of genes mixed together. But these genes cause differences in morphology, so we call them morphs. I'm willing to bet that each trait we see is caused by a concoction of alleles that are all close to each other on the chromosome (and therefor passed to the offspring together). Sort of like how eye pigments in humans are actually coded for by thousands of alleles, which is why no two people have exactly the same eye color. I suspect that is why eclipse leopard geckos tend to have white nose and feet among other things. Certain types of patterns, the sort of washed out colors. They are probably all coded for by sets of alleles that are inherited together.

But, that's sort of a tangent. I find genetics quite interesting and could go on about it for quite some time. It's really quite complicated. There is so much more to it than just Mendelian theory. Not super relevant here, though.

 

[discoverlight]

So the best outcome for breeding would be wild types with one het that you can pin down and then breed the babies with those hets to get the gecko you want? I can see how it can be confusing with two different hets that look very similar. But do you have any idea what mine could be? I mean it's definitely not a tremper, kinda close to a rainwater, and nothing like a bell. Looks like a patternless albino but the pictures don't give it justice with how many different shades of pink and tang, has tang on the tail too (faded) that this guy has. I literally have no idea what he looks like, despite him being claimed to be all of these albinos, what does he look like to you with the naked eye?

And plus the white patches on this head, torso, and lower torso. I just don't know what I'm dealing with here even remotely

 

[Neon Aurora]

I may have been editing my post a bunch after you replied. Sorry about that.

My guess is still on tremper. In my opinion, there are no best outcomes for breeding this. You don't know what it is, and no one can tell you for sure. It's not patternless because it has bands. It's an albino, but I don't know what kind. I would highly recommend not breeding this gecko because it was sold to you as bubblegum, which means there is a possibility that it could be more than one strain of albino, homozygous or heterozygous. Hopefully you looked at the picture of the calculations, it's a big mess.

 

[discoverlight]

Yeah I dont want to breed him I was just wondering if he is ACTUALLY a mess of albino, or just one albino morph that could be identified. He looks strange for a tremper, but if that's your judgement then sure i'll go with that, if anybody else has any guesses that would be cool to know!

Well you said no 2 albino strains could exist outwardly at one time, still trying to see what he's closest to with any albino. If tremper is your guess then that's cool

 

[Neon Aurora]

Actually, I said that two strains of albino CAN be expressed at the same time. Is this one of them? I don't know. Probably not, but I doubt you'll ever know for sure.

Again, I'm not sure how on board I am with guessing albinos. I see it sometimes. Rainwaters are soft, bells are sort of popping and trempers are... well trempers. But I'm still skeptical how accurate it is to guess like this. I don't have a lot of practice guessing, because I know all the genetics of my leos and don't usually try to guess on other peoples'. My guess is tremper because of the reasons I stated. Visually, it's not super classic when it comes to albinos. However, I have seen albinos before that have those really light pink bands like yours (faintly) has, and they have been trempers.

So again, my guess is tremper mostly because it is the most common one. I still am not completely on board with the concept of guessing albinos visually. I see how it works, and I understand how each albino is sort of distinct, but it is still never guaranteed. Someone breeding bubblegums is probably not very serious, so would be more likely to have a tremper than the other kinds simply because they are more common. I personally doubt that your gecko is actually expressing two strains at once. Could it be expressing one strain and het for another? it could be. You probably will never know for sure. And that's okay. I'm really curious whether or not one of my normals is het blizzard due to a high degree of speckling. But I will never know, and that's okay.

 

[discoverlight]

I looked at some juvenile trempers and they definitely express that white, unfinished banding. I'm really curious if I could breed him as a personal project? Like I only sold the babies as pets and seeing what albino babies would come from him? Or is a personal project away from selling to breeders a bad idea? If it's a no, I definitely won't but I want some advice first

If i were to sell any I dont need and hold back interesting lined of albino, and breed those again and again, would I eventually find out what the babies are het for and then I can get a pure line? Or would it be impossible? Any input appreciated, I would be dedicated to the project no problem.

 

[discoverlight]

If i can't find a pure gene (tremper, bell, or rainwater) like in 2 generations then It's not worth it and i probably wont bother doing it.
By "pure" i mean a tremper het tremper etc

 

[discoverlight]

You know what, I have another project in mind, I wont bother with him.

He'll make a great pet after he recovers from parasites, thanks for the help! I will be asking more about genetics and a project i want to do in the proper thread so i'll see you there if you want to help :main_thumbsup:

 

[Neon Aurora]

I'm glad you've decided not to breed this gecko. I think that is a good choice.

Best of luck to you.

 

[discoverlight]

I found a kind of similar morph to what he may be.

This is a mack snow tremper albino

And this is him:



Similar but not completely it, still stunted on what he may be.

 

[stager]

It's not impossible for two forms of albinism to expressed at one. For example, if you crossed a bell and a tremper and got wild types het tremper and bell, you could cross the babies and have a chance of getting bell trempers.

Anyways, I really don't know. It would be hard for anyone to tell you if it is expressing two at once, if it just albino het another strain of albino, or if it's just an albino that someone called a bubblegum.

If the albino strains cancel eachother out why wouldn't they do the same as hets?

 

[Neon Aurora]

The albino strains don't cancel each other out...

 

[discoverlight]

They might have been saying that, two forms of albinism can't be extressed at once, if you try to put two albinos together you'll get normals het albino, and if you breed those babies, you said you'll be able to get bell trempers? But if they can't be expressed at once, they technically cancle each other out, so you wouldn't be able to create bell trempers? That's what I got from what i read, correct me if im wrong

 

[Neon Aurora]

I don't see why they wouldn't be able to be expressed at the same time. You can have a gecko that is both homozygous for bell and tremper, which will cause both genes to be expressed at once. The alleles for tremper and the alleles for bell and the alleles for rainwater are all probably all at different loci because they all came up independently from one another. Unless the alleles were replacing one another at the same locus (which seems pretty unlikely to me), I don't see why both couldn't be expressed at once.

 

[stager]

They don't? Tremp X bell produces non albino geckos. These bible gums have been around for years and every story I've ever seen when someone tried to prove them out the only proved out to be one type of albino. If you do a search you may find something on it.

 

[discoverlight]

If he was proven to be het rainwater, tremper, or bell, then what is he? I don't really care much for what his hets are because he is definitely het for one of the albino strains, the gecko himself just doesn't look like he is anything that I have personally ever seen before.