Strange and Seemingly Sudden Swelling?

[Arconna]

I've had this little gal for some time. She's always been rather small, but active, a good eater, etc. I've never had issues with her beyond being relatively averse to handling.

Recently, I noticed that all of her limbs look swollen, particularly around the area above the foot and the feet themselves (not all of them). This all seems to have come along quite suddenly. At first I thought it had to do with the fact that her cage tumbled over while I was cleaning, but the fall was short and the swelling seems too advanced to be from a broken limb, since I noticed the swelling right after righting her cage.

I've had geckos with MBD before, but my understanding is that the swollen joints and the like come along more slowly. These swellings can't have happened over a long period of time. Maybe two weeks at the outside, but since I fed them recently and cleaned all their cages last week (deep clean), I can't imagine how I could have missed her obviously swollen/disfigured limbs.

So I'm sort of lost and intend to take her to my vet, but I did want to ask if anyone has seen anything like this and has any opinions on the matter. It just seems...so sudden. I've had geckos with all manner of health issues in the last few years. One had swollen feet because of kidney failure (a vet over-medicated him and killed his kidneys), one had swollen legs from MDB, which I fixed with meds (he's doing just dandy now, though a little messed up looking).

Pictures are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/16411222@N06/sets/72157627001527922/

Sorry if the pictures aren't the best, but I was trying to cause her as little stress as I could to take them.

Okay, I'll shut up now. Just concerned and stressed with all the health complications...

 

[Wowoklol]

Possibly Gout?

Google Gecko Gout

A thread I found with some good information. http://www.someotherforumiwontlisthere.net/forums/showthread.php?81493-leopard-gecko-and-gout

This is probably one of the best quotes I know of regarding gout. It is by Sam Sweet, professor of herpitology at UCSB, regarding monitors but applies to most reptiles as the anatomy is similar.

"Once they've eaten, monitors like nearly all reptiles will bask as long as they can to speed up digestion. While they're doing that (and not drinking), they are dehydrating. At the same time the proteins in their food are being digested, and the nitrogenous waste is being converted from ammonia at the cellular level to urea in the bloodstream to uric acid in the kidneys or cloaca. Urea is made of two ammonia molecules, and uric acid is made of two urea molecules, so at each step the concentration of the solution falls by half, and the available water is reabsorbed; above a certain concentration uric acid begins to crystallize out of solution, allowing recovery of almost all the metabolic water. This is why lizard (and bird) 'pee' is white and semisolid. The problem is that uric acid crystals are not easily dissolved once they form, and they plog up the works.

Normally this last crystallization step occurs in the cloaca. However, if an animal is dehydrated you can get crystallization of uric acid in the kidneys, which impairs their function, and even elsewhere in the animal's body if dehydration is severe. This condition is termed visceral gout, and it is basically irreversible. It is insidious, because tiny bits of crystalline uric acid act as templates for further crystyal growth, and so any time the animal is even slightly dehydrated, a bit more can form. After a while it becomes a big problem and can kill the animal."

If this your leopard gecko died of the visceral gout then there are way, related to husbandry to avoid this from happening in the future but I will let the leopard gecko keepers answer that in more detail. It generally has to do with humidity and many of them have various ways of providing it for thier reptiles.

 

[Arconna]

Wouldn't she be lethargic from gout and not presenting the urates in her feces?

She's active and when I try to feed her she lunges right at it. (I'm contradicting because I just read about gout and everything I've seen says it is fatal...which scares the living hell out of me)...

 

[Arconna]

Just wanted to update everyone, in the event that you wanted to know what is going on with Taj.

Took her to the vet right after I posted the original message above. They did some tests, didn't find clear signs of gout. They didn't want to put her on meds without knowing what was going on, so they wanted me to give her twice-daily soaks and keep an eye on it.

She seemed to be doing okay, but today seems to be the turning point and I am probably going to have to have her put down. Her swelling is noticeably worse (and, again, very sudden) and she is not using her front legs well. I can also see joint swelling where her chest is (or that's what it appears like to me, so maybe it's really around the joints for the top of her legs). I doubt there's anything they can do for her now, so I'll get her in this week and, well...just preparing myself for the worst.

Not happy. All this happened right at the end of my sister's visit, so it's sort of a torrential downpour of sad crap.

The only good news is that my other sick leo, Noodles, has shown some improvement. His eye is sort of middling in crap area now, but it's not getting significantly worse and I think the bacterial infection has subsided. He isn't eating, though, which is new. I just hope he doesn't turn for the worst too. Had them both so long. I don't know if I can stand losing both at the same time...

Anywho. Thanks for the help and thoughts. I'd hoped for the best, but this might be the last week I have her...

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Shaun, I'm sorry about your girl.

It seems with so many issues you've mentioned with your geckos, something needs to be corrected in the husbandry. If you'll fill out this questionnaire http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=70912 we can better see what might be able to keep your animals in good condition.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Shaun, I'm so sorry you have had so many issues with your geckos over the past few years.

 

[Arconna]

I'll fill this out as best I can for my leos. Weight will be difficult, since the battery for my scale has decided to die and I'm not sure where to get a replacement just yet. Most of my leos are pretty good in terms of their weight. I have one leo who is on the light side, but she eats well. Noodles has lost some weight, but I attribute a lot of that to all the stress of vet appts, me poking him, etc.

(Note: It's probably important to mention that I moved cross country two years ago; no idea if this can have an affect on their health two years later, but there it is...)

About your leo:
- Sex (4 male; 4 female)
- Age & Weight (varied w/ some I'm not sure about due to getting them as rescues. Best guess for them:
Noodles (M) - 8
Hubert (M) - 5
Grim (M) - 8
Zak (M) - 8
Taj (F) - 6
Mahal (F) - 6
And (F) - 7
Cheese (F) - 7)
- How long have you owned your leos
(again, varied; most I have owned since they were little ones, with the exception of Grim, Zak, Cheese, and And, who were adults of a few years when I got them)
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend)
(All were purchased from breeders, except for Zak, who came from a family friend's kid who didn't want to take care of him anymore; Noodles, Taj, and Mahal came from Marcia at GGG; Hubert came from another breeder, but I've misplaced my records; the others were from amateur breeders and classifieds)
A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo
(Most get handled every week during feedings, cleanings, etc. Cheese is the only one that I don't handle much; she doesn't care for it. Taj didn't used to, but her illness has sort of made her okay with handling)
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.
(Taj is the only one not acting herself, obviously. Noodles more or less acts normal, with the exception of his lack of appetite. He doesn't run around in his cage at night, I've noticed, which seems like normal gecko activity. Not sure if this is an indication of something.
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.
(Zak had tumors from cancer, which were removed; Noodles has had eye issues on and off for years; Hubert had MBD, which is now resolved, though he's a little goofy looking, but still adorable as all heck; and Taj has joint swellings. Otherwise, all healthy)
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal)
(Taj did have one yesterday. It had the white urate, but the part that was supposed to be dark brown was a much lighter color. Noodles had semi-runny stools as of late, and some regular ones, but that might be due to some of the oral meds they had him on. I haven't seen newer stools since they took him off those, though)

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size
Large 16qt shoebox (clear)
- Type of substrate
Paper towel
- Hides, how many, what kind
One hide each; large plastic tupperware w/ moss inside (or paper towel for those that like to defecate inside their hides). Plus: water bowl and small bowl for food.
B) Heating
- Heat source
Heat rope on a rheostat
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side)
75 on cool; 85-90 on the hot. It fluctuates some due to flow of A/C. I try to keep it in that range.
- What are you using to measure your temps
Tempgun (the small one)
- Do you have any lights (describe)
No.

C) Cage mates
None

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much)
Mealworms (around 20 medium per feeding, which is usually every week)
Waxworms (occasionally; 5 or so at a time when I have them, maybe two times a week)
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect)
B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands)
Rep-Cal Calcium w/ D3
Rep-Cal Multivitamin (Herptivite)
(These aren't used every feeding)
- What are you gut loading food with
They're in a kind of chicken feed and they get carrots, potatoes, or other veggies, depending on what I have (usually the first two)


Hopefully all of this helps in some way.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Nothing really screams that it needs to be changed immediately, fortunately. The bedding you keep mealworms in, could be too high in protein and other ingredients to use as a bedding material. I don't know if this could interfere with vitamin/mineral intake on the geckos. I use it as an additional food source to grow up my worm colonies if needed, and regular wheat bran as their bedding. What's a bit odd about the chicken feed is, when I put some in for the large supers as food, they turned aggressive toward each other. This is just my observation with the large feeders tho. Chicken feed also causes veggies to mold quickly. One of the rescue geckos I took in had problems with shed getting stuck in her eyes. For this one, I would shoot a fine mist every few days in a small area on the side of the tub at the warm end, for a little extra humidity. This worked like a charm and there were no more eye issues. After the infection has completely cleared up, this may help with future sheds. Your temps could be bumped up a few degrees.

Is your girl having any difficulty with her jaw when she eats?

 

[Arconna]

The bad news is I just had her put down. They are doing an autopsy to be sure she doesn't have something that might infect my other leos. Sad day for me

Minor correction about husbandry stuff:
Wax worms are a few times a week when I have them, which is every other month. I don't buy them often because they're expensive and a pain in the toosh to keep in worm form for long.

Also: I was wrong about my temps. They're supposed to be in the 85-90, but I was getting 94.4 when I checked them late last night. So the range was around 88-95. I turned it down so it would be more around 91.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I'm sorry. Please let us know what the necropsy reveals.

 

[lillith]

I'm sorry to hear about this. I hope everyone else stays healthy for you!
I also hope the necropsy lets you know what happened...

 

[Arconna]

Update: the first parts of the necropsy confirm that she had kidney failure. They were running other tests to determine the underlying cause. It's possible I never would have known until it was too late, though, since she never showed signs until now... I suppose that's somewhat comforting, but still very sad.

Update #2 (Noodles): My other sick leo took a turn for the worst recently. His infected eye got more infected and eventually ruptured. He went in for surgery on Friday and came out okay. They took the eye out, cleaned the wound, sewed him up, and kept him overnight. So far, he's not eating on his own, but I also don't have to force feed him. I'm using a syringe with some power/water mixture stuff and he takes that just fine (a very good sign, I'm told). He's not terribly weak from the surgery. He's on inflammation and pain meds, and antibiotics. He came home from the vet looking like he had liposuction, though. They say that's because of blood loss, so I'm keeping him hydrated and fed.

Other than missing his eye and looking kind of creepy (and some minor bleeding), he seems to be doing okay. I've taken to calling him Odin as a nickname, because it seems so perfectly fitting. I'm hoping this is more of less the end of his eye problems and that he can go back to being a relatively normal lizard. You'd be hard pressed to tell he just had surgery too. All bright eyed and running about doing normal gecko things (well, mostly he's doing that cute arm spread bellow rest, but he's very alert).

Thought you'd all like to know what's going on with everything. If any significant developments take place, I'll let you know. I think this is the end of it. I'm hoping it is. He's doing well, considering, so...yeah.

Anywho!