"The Back" of a pet store. Please help.

[Ruzei]

(Im cross-posting this from another forum)


I would like to begin by saying that I joined this forum sort of as a last resort to help geckos that arent mine.

I work at one of the big chain pet stores as a regular sales associate. Yes, I know they receive a lot of backlash for numerous reasons. No, im not going to give out a specific name.

I desperately want to help these geckos in need. I am however very limited to what I can and cant do since I am a regular associate and the animals are "product."

We have a "back" area of the store, where we keep sick, injured, and overstock animals. It is divided into two rooms, one with the sick and the other with the healthy (not that this will stop transmission being that they are still in the same airspace and equipment is shared) but thats not what this is about anyway.

Right now we have two tanks with geckos. One with 2 and the other with 1 (they did have 3 and 2 respectively, but they are dying off...) We have always had a problem with our geckos, they are always unhealthy and they always arrive to us this way and progressively get worse.
Let me mention now that I only know basic leo care. I have never owned one before, so I am not experienced in terms of health issues. I raise panther chameleons though and have had corns, boas, GTPs, and a beardie before though so im not new to reptiles.

We have all the wrong husbandry for these guys. They are in 15 gallon tanks with carpet, red light bulb, one hide, being fed mealworms only. They say no crickets because they would just eat at the geckos and they are likely right. They show no interest in the worms however. The hide has a wet paper towel with moss, which is something we have never had with our leos before but they did it for these guys since they are in rough shape. There are thermometers but no one looks at them. This could be worse, at least theres no sand.

These geckos are very very sicky looking. Arms and legs and tail are toothpick thin, you can see the outline of their skull, their poop isnt solid, not eating at all, you name it. And I am getting extremely frustrated watching them whither away. To understand the severity of the geckos in question, here are a few pictures:


I also want to mention that on the belly of some of the geckos, there is a very dark red triangular shape in the stomach. Im assuming it is some kind of organ, maybe the liver, and im assuming that its not normal for it to be that noticeable and that dark. I can take pictures tomorrow if necessary.

Their care hardly gets taken seriously by anyone. The management claims to have taken them to our vet, and the vet said that there was nothing he could do at all. And that was when the geckos were in slightly better shape. They were sent back with no kind of medication, no instructions, nothing.

When I asked about it, I was told by a manager "Oh theyre malnourished because of competition for food and now theyre not eating because theyre malnourished."

That makes absolutely no sense. Not to mention that there are always crickets and mealworms in the gecko tank on the floor, they are CHOOSING not to eat. The ones we left on the floor arent in any better shape, I dont know why theyre not in the back with the other sick ones. Literally even a 9 year old child commented that our leos on the floor looked sick just the other day. The other day one of the managers said they were about to put them back out on the floor with the customers. I couldnt believe it.

We are giving the geckos reptiboost but I feel like its not doing anything. Im pretty sure it is the only thing they are eating period, and that im the only one even giving it to them. I dont even work every single day to be able to give it to them.
I just really want to help these guys and do what I can given my limited act of power. Ill take any advice I can. I just hate having to sit and watch them die. We lost two within the past few days, they just black bag them and put them in the freezer and we take it mainly as a profit loss.
What on earth can I do to help these geckos?

 

[Ryder5406]

Holy shit. I would flip out and be fired imediately. But not before documenting by video,audio,and pictures. I would tape response by managers to your questions of care and I would post a well put together blog unanimously somewhere. This is bullshit.

 

[hds1492]

This is heartbreaking

 

[Ruzei]

Holy shit. I would flip out and be fired imediately. But not before documenting by video,audio,and pictures. I would tape response by managers to your questions of care and I would post a well put together blog unanimously somewhere. This is bullshit.

That is actually kind of what Im doing. Im not quitting yet because I want to last long enough to be able to get as much documentation as I can. I have other pictures as well, not with geckos but with snakes, hamsters, etc. I only wish I took more, but im building it up... I would love to write a book on the topic one day, lol.

Members from another forum seem to think that it is the result of crypto, and I agree. Im going to try to convince the staff to take at least one gecko back to the vet to get it tested and possibly euthanized. I need to be able to emphasize the severity of the case so that we can take appropriate measures. We just lost another gecko tonight, it is heartbreaking watching it happen.

Things like this sadly happen all the time. They dont take them to the vet until its too late, unless its a small mammal, when abnormalities are easier to spot and since its cute and fluffy it pretty much unintentionally gets priority.
99% of the time, they come to us that way in shipment. Whatever breeder we are getting them from is horrible. They send them to us very young and always sickly. They just progress at the store while not getting treated. They also send us baby chameleons that are definitely not old enough to be handed out to the general public, they are barely 2-3 weeks old. Same with the cresties and corns, but at least these guys appear healthy.

 

[LepoInc]

Totally understand. I was in the same position a few months back, probably the same chain, too. But its almost indefinitely crypto, especially if its ongoing. If no one has treated it, and really got rid of it, its probably going gecko to gecko, doing its crypto thing. Unless you can get a manager to let you disinfect and neutralize everything, that freezer is going to keep filling up with little black bags.

 

[Ruzei]

UPDATE: I talked to the GM (lead store manager, big boss of our location) and she said that theyre not supposed to test for things like crypto because they are supposed to do that before they leave the breeders. I call BS on that because of the condition of these guys... but anyway, she did say that she would take them to the vet again and bring up the topic of euthanasia to the vet and see if she can get them tested anyway. Only if the doctor thinks its necessary though but to me he does not sound very knowledgeable about geckos or crypto for that matter. Hopefully she follows up on this as promised. Will keep you guys updated.


Im definitely going to look into that crypto testing by mail, if I have to pay the money out of my own pocket then so be it....


On the brightish side, the two geckos that were left are doing better. They have a little more fat in their tails than the ones pictured. I have hope for them. However, I did move one gecko from the floor to the sick tank because he was looking as bad as the ones that died.

 

[Ruzei]

Can anyone tell me whats up with these bellies? Theres the dark red obstruction I mentioned before, along with some kind of yellowish whitish mass... two have a dark red spot too. (the last one is the gecko I just move into the back from the floor)

 

[Ryder5406]

I think your seeing the liver and stomach. How could anybody sleep at night letting that happen. Not you. The people in charge.

No biggy right? There just nasty reptiles who cares.

 

[Ruzei]

I think your seeing the liver and stomach. How could anybody sleep at night letting that happen. Not you. The people in charge.

No biggy right? There just nasty reptiles who cares.

Dont get me wrong, they do care. They just dont know how to care. Their intentions are good and they mean well, they just literally have no idea what theyre doing or how serious it is. Even when I try to explain it to them (I tried again yesterday) they just think that its not anything serious and that theres nothing they can do, because the vet said so. They dont know what a good reptile vet is, they just think every vet knows everything like a lot of people do. They dont have the experience to know thats not the case, and they dont have the experience to know how serious the condition of the geckos is. I wish they would just believe me. On the other forum, someone suggested that I go through the mail and send them some samples to get them crypto tested myself since no one else wants to do it.

We just got a shipment of HEALTHY geckos in the other day, I noticed some new ones in the floor tank. Plump tails, healthy bodies, they look great. And its sad because its only a matter of time before they probably catch crypto and start declining. I think im going to take progress photos to see how they end up.

 

[Ryder5406]

Good idea. I've never seen belly heat in any pet store tank before. Only a heat lamp that does more harm then good with Leo's. Also I bet there food doesn't get dusted most of the time or gut loaded. Shedding also seems to be major problem because they definitely don't get warm soaks and the humidity is almost certainly too low. No humid hides either. If it's crypto good luck getting it out of those tanks because they won't do what it would take to get rid it. It would mean not having pets out for sale for a few days until everything was cleaned and disinfected properly.

 

[Ruzei]

I gave Avian Biotech a call this morning to see about getting them tested for crypto myself via mail. I printed and filled out the submission form and ordered the swabs, so I have to wait for those to come in before I send anything.

However, I just got some new information. They are taking the three remaining geckos left to the vet today at 3 to see about euthanasia. This is a good-bad thing because now I may not be able to send samples to get them tested. I pretty much begged the guy taking them to the vet to see about getting at least one tested, I'm not sure if it will happen or not. We'll just have to wait and see.

Even so, if these three geckos get euthanized, we still have a few on the floor. The new healthy batch plus another one or two from the old batch that don't look nearly as healthy as the new ones do. Yes they are all being housed together...
I can always probably get samples from one of them later on. If they do indeed have crypto, it's only a matter of time before it transmits to the new healthy batch.

 

[Ruzei]

Good idea. I've never seen belly heat in any pet store tank before. Only a heat lamp that does more harm then good with Leo's. Also I bet there food doesn't get dusted most of the time or gut loaded. Shedding also seems to be major problem because they definitely don't get warm soaks and the humidity is almost certainly too low. No humid hides either. If it's crypto good luck getting it out of those tanks because they won't do what it would take to get rid it. It would mean not having pets out for sale for a few days until everything was cleaned and disinfected properly.

We actually do have heating mats for pretty much all of the reptiles (including the chameleons.....*facepalm*) You just don't see them because they are underneath everything. However, they do not get checked often for functionality, nor are we checking the temps on the bottom. We have those junky dial stick-on-glass-where-it-doesnt-matter kind of thermometers.

On the contrary though, I wish we did have heating bulbs for at least some of the reps, like the chameleons and iguanas for example. Everyone has UV lighting but the bulbs never get changed unless they go out, and even then it can take weeks before they get replaced.

You are somewhat correct on the food not getting properly dusted or gutloaded. The powder is there, but not everyone knows to use it or how to even do it. Most of the time they don't get dusted. Also, the only powder we have is Zoo Meds Reptivite vitamins with D3. Not sure if that's just straight calcium or multivitamin or what, but it means that animals that shouldn't have D3 often are getting it (chameleons.) I did secretly shelf-pull some Repashy for the chams at least lol. Its better than what they were getting.

As far as gutloading goes, the crickets do get fed flukers calcium cricket feed and water cubes. Not exactly great, but at least it's not nothing. The food gets changed maybe once or twice a week.

And you are definitely correct on humidity levels for the geckos. No soaks, moist hides, etc. They are seen as desert species so policy says everything must be dry. Its not even on the care sheets we hand out to people.

I wouldn't say they won't do what it takes to get rid of the crypto if we do have it. If they knew the urgency, they can deep clean and pull the animals off the shelf. Its cleaning with ammonia and tossing cage furnishings that may be an issue. They just need to be properly educated on what to do and what crypto even is.

 

[DadCoy]

I had an experience at one of the chain stores where I actually opened the tank, took the gecko out and walked out of the store with it....right in front of the manager. I called him over to ask why the gecko was not receiving proper treatment and not being taken care of. the response was, if you think you can do better buy it and save it....So I took it, and now its been 6 months and the gecko is happy and healthy....

The look on his face though!!!! I am surprised he did not even call the police or anyone....

 

[Ruzei]

Well.... I have some unsatisfying and concerning news.

The manager got back from the vet earlier today. Not only did none of the geckos get euthanized or tested for anything, they were placed back on the sales floor with the exception of one. I don't understand why. The two geckos aren't even eating on their own yet. All they would eat was the reptiboost we had to force them, and now they are in the same tank with about 7 other geckos.

When I questioned him why they couldn't have at least gotten tested, he said pretty much the same thing as the head manager said. "We don't do that."
He told me the vet said that crypto was the least of his worries. He said that the geckos looked that way due to stress probably from shipment. I don't see how this can happen. We got those geckos months ago. He said we were doing a good job nursing them back to health and gave them the clear to go back on the sales floor and that was about it. He did give the third gecko a shot of calcium calcium/vitamins.

I'm not saying the vet was wrong, but nothing was tested. We don't have a real answer. I feel like they just tried to take the easy way out. There was also no comment from the vet on all the obstructions in the belly or of their eating habits. Although I think the yellowish mass in the throat was some of the reptiboost.

For some reason, something in the store policy is preventing them from being tested for crypo. I'm going to have to do it, if not just to put my own mind at ease even if they really don't end up having it. I seem to be the only one that thinks these geckos are at risk here.

Is competition for food even a common problem among baby leos? What about stress during shipment lasting for weeks or even a month or two? What other things could cause these kinds of symptoms?

Here are a few pictures of all the geckos in the tank on the floor minus the one we still have in the back. Its painfully obvious which ones are sickly and which ones are the new ones... it this OK?

 

[Ruzei]

Update:


Sorry for the long wait in response, but It wasnt really until recently that I was able to get any info worth noting. Anyway...


As it turns out, the leopard geckos at our store, DO in fact have cryptosporidium.


I shouldnt be too surprised judging by how the previous geckos looked... all of the sickly ones have been euthanized and all of the newer healthier looking ones that were out on the sales floor have now been relocated into the back room area for quarantine.


They sent in samples of the previous geckos and from the enclosure to the corporate labs (well gee, whaddya know, I guess they CAN test when they want to :main_angry and the results came back positive.


Im not sure what got the management to actually finally send in a test sample, if something I said finally got them to do it, and why they told me that they couldnt do it at all before in the first place. I dont know if they only recently discovered that they were able to or if they were intentionally keeping it from being known, no idea. I shouldnt be too nit-picky though, im just glad they at least sent in a sample to get them tested at all.
I was also days away from paying money out of my own pocket to go behind the scenes and send samples myself through Avian Biotech since I thought they werent going to, I had the swab and everything, I was just waiting for a fresh fecal sample which I never could get because I dont think the poor things ever pooped. Or if they did, it must have never been solid.




No one was keeping me updated or informed on the situation at all either, I had to keep pestering and asking questions to find out what was going on with these geckos. It made me feel like they didnt value any of the information or advice I had or cared to have me trying to help these geckos get better and figure out what was wrong. Every time I spoke up, "We arent allowed to test for crypto", or "The vet said to just keep giving them reptiboost", or my favorite, "Oh the geckos are just starving because they are competing for food". And now that the results came back positive for crypto, they still dont take my advice seriously. I just cant help but to say I told you so. :wall:


Another thing though, I really cant believe our store REPTILE veterinarian told us that crypto was the least of his worries and gave the first batch of geckos the clear to go back on the sales floor. Because of this, those geckos were not getting any sort of nutrition at all because all they could eat was the reptiboost we were forcing them while they were in the back. They probably went days without food. Then, someone finally noticed, after more were dying, and put them in the back room again.
It didnt matter how many times I tried to tell someone that this wasnt ok, that these geckos likely had crypto, no one really took me seriously until it was too late. I cant half blame them though for believing the vet over me, because you know, all vets know best.


Im just glad that the geckos we had got euthanized because I feel like giving them the reptiboost was only making them die slower. I just feel very horrible that they went about a week without eating while they were back on the sales floor before getting moved to the quarantine area again.


Back to the current situation on hand. This is what our back gecko tank looks like now, with the new geckos in it. There is an under tank heater that I put on the bottom now under the hide. I removed all the lighting and tried explaining to them why they dont need it (in which they looked at me like I was crazy.) We have a corn snake back there too that needs a UTH but they are keeping lights on it instead.



And this is their care paper:



I dont think these geckos are going to have much of a chance if theyve already been living in the crypto infected tank for a few weeks now. Even if they send in samples and they come back negative, there is no doubt that they are going to get it. The tank they are in is even the same tank the previous ones were in. They didnt even clean it, and they especially didnt use the appropriate disinfectant or ammonia on it to kill the crypto. Same mat and all. They are going to euthanize all of these geckos if the samples come back positive for crypto in two or so weeks.


Im just worried now, that if the samples come back negative for these geckos, the management here are once again going to ignore my warnings and they will will think "Yay the crypto is gone!" and call it a day. They might clean the habitats with bleach at most. Maybe, just maybe they will take me seriously and go the extra length to use the ammonia. But we still have all of the supplies that we use for ALL of the reptiles, such as bowls, hides, mats, etc, that get interchanged all the time, that they would have to be willing to either throw away completely or disinfect. And there is a lot of supplies. The only logical solution is to simply not order any more geckos for a very long time, but I doubt they will go for that because they are a popular seller.


I think in total, we've lost anywhere from 7-10 leos from this whole endeavor, not counting the 5 that are still alive that will probably be euthanized at some point because they were exposed.


Let this be a lesson and go-to thread for anyone considering getting a gecko from a big box store.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Sadly crypto is super hard to get rid of and the best bet is to throw away all materials and cages that have come into contact with any infected animals, which most pet stores are not willing to do. I would encourage them to inform their wholesaler of the issue but if crypto has been in the cage for a while it may not be coming from them (unless you've used them consistently for a very long time) . It may be in the cage and the new geckos your store gets in are becoming infected by something they're coming into contact with in your store. I would suggest getting the PCR test from Avian Biotech done on the surviving geckos and euthanizing any that come back positive as their long term survival outlook is fairly bleak and their chance of infecting healthy or new animals is very high. I'm glad they put the others down so they're not suffering anymore.

Good luck with getting it all cleaned up and back in order :/

 

[Ruzei]

Update:


As I expected, they wouldnt go with ammonia based cleaners. As a matter of fact, when I brought up the word to one manager she looked at me like I was crazy for suggesting it. I told her that the bleach will likely not be enough to get rid of all the crypto, but she was pretty adamant about using it. At first I couldnt even find the bleach and she told me just to use a cleanser product called Spitfire. Its an industrial power cleaner/degreaser meant for getting gunk off of floors or tough stuff like paint. Its strong stuff but I dont think its even a disinfectant. I did end up finding the bleach, I used both cleansers though in hopes to strengthen the cleansing.
The leos are right next door to the beardies, they are separated by a thin plastic divider. I took everyone and everything out and scrubbed and wiped as best as I could. I let it sit for a few minutes and let all the tank decor soak in the bucket too. I think I did a pretty good job given my circumstances, I just dont know if the bleach/spitfire will ever be enough. They wont go through with throwing everything out. They didnt even want me to go as extensive as I did and do the beardie side too. "It takes too long and wastes time." The way she described it to me, she just wanted me to take some bleach and a rag and put a little on the rag and rub the glass down a bit. She wouldnt even let me take the whole tank down and to the back to give it a good hot water wash in the industrial tub. None of this soaking and scrubbing "nonsense". :wall:


That being said, 5 new healthy geckos (yes, we got ANOTHER batch in) have now been placed back on the floor in the maybe-crypto-infected tank. We were holding them in the back for a couple days until the tank could be "thoroughly" disinfected. The other batch of 5 geckos mentioned a few posts ago have been tested positive for crypto. We still are holding them in the back. Im not too sure what they are going to do with them at this point. When I asked about it, the response I got was somewhat like "They tested positive for crypto but we are going to hold them back here because crypto is something that doesnt always affect and kill geckos, its something they always have but it wont always show."
Im guessing (by the small research that I did on crypto) that either she or the vet we are using believe the myth that crypto is something lizards always have, kind of like fish with Ich.


I just hope they dont plan on putting the crypto-positive geckos in with the newest healthy batch. It almost doesnt even matter at this point because theres a good chance that crypto is still in the tank anyway. Good grief. :veryangry2:


Obviously they have no idea what they are dealing with. They think its just a simple virus that will go away with a little disinfecting like a child with the flu.
They wont take any of my advice or heed my warnings. I've pretty much given up on this situation, I've done everything I could do in my power.