Tremper vs Bell Albino

[brendan0923]

Hey everyone,

I have asked a similar question before, though I'm still not sure I fully understand. Are there any key differences between Tremper and Bell Albinos, or do they look too similar to tell the difference? I ask because I have a female gecko named Cleopatra that I got from a local chain pet store, and unfortunatley I have no clue what albino she is.

Any help is aprreciated. Thanks![emoji2]

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[indyana]

Some people make educated guesses based on certain markers, but there's no way to tell visually what strain of albino a gecko is with absolute accuracy.

 

[geckolabs]

With the extensive amount of selective breeding that has occurred with the albino strains, there are no ways of telling what strain an animal is with 100% certainty without genetic information on the parents. And coming from a pet shop, even if you did know what strain it was, that still doesn't guarantee that the animal doesn't carry another strain of albino as well, or any other unknown het.

What I usually tell people who ask regarding an albino from an unknown source, or one that does not track lineage is as follows (and it is in no way meant to be abrasive or mean, but it is to help newcomers and those not very familiar with the genetic aspects of breeding to understand the importance of lineage when labeling an animal):


"If you buy an animal from a pet store, it is that- a pet. So please think about a few things before you post asking what your leo is.
1) Did you buy it with any parental information? If so, list that information when you ask. It makes things a LOT easier and quicker.

2) Did you buy it as referred to a 'pet only'? If so, then it is just that. These animals typically do not come with genetic information because they are not intended to be bred. They are referred to as 'pet only' for a reason- usually being they are either byproducts of muddy genetics, have a deformity, or are retired breeders.

3) Did you buy it from a pet shop? This coincides with whether you have parental information, since not many stores provide such info. If you got it from a shop, and didn't get any parental info, then it should be treated as a pet.

We understand that many people feel the 'need' to know what they have, as it makes them feel as if their animal is more special. Look at it this way:

All of them, from normals, to the most expensive morph combinations, are equally as special.

If you have an albino leo, but do not have any genetic info for it, then just leave it at knowing it is albino, as no one will be able to tell you with 100% confidence which of the three types it is. And no one type makes it any more lovable than the next. "


That being said, your gecko certainly looks nice and healthy, so was definitely a good find for a pet shop!

 

[brendan0923]

Thanks for the info. I got her from a store that did not have any genetic info or anything on her, but she was actually pretty good looking, so I decided to take her. I've had her for probably close to a year now but I never knew her genetics, and was curious if there was a way to tell what strain of albino she is, but I guess I may never know quite what she is. Oh well, she looks pretty cool whatever she is!

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[DiAmoroso]

While it is true that it is impossible to be 100% sure, an experienced set of eyes can make a good guess. Every strain has a unique look to them, and after seeing thousands of geckos the little differences begin to stand out more. A good picture of the eyes would help, but I'll go out on a limb and say this is almost definitely a Tremper.

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[Ruvik]

I would get a nice eye picture as well. The three different Albino strands normally have different eye colors. So with that someone could make a guess as to what she might be.

 

[Neon Aurora]

While you may or may not be able to come up with a somewhat accurate guess based on variation in specific traits (I actually don't know for sure I guess, but I feel pretty confident that there is too much variation in albinos nowadays to make an accurate guess), I think people on this forum generally simplify it to "You can't tell visually" to stop people from asking which strain it looks like and then breeding animals of unknown albino strains. In my opinion, an educated guess is really not good grounds to be breeding on. Not that I'm implying that the OP was intending to do that =)

 

[DiAmoroso]

I definitely don't think there are many people up to the task of responsibly breeding leopard geckos of unknown genetics. On the other hand, I disagree completely that it is difficult to tell apart the albino stains. There are certainly a few geckos out there that I couldn't be confident on, but not many. All three albino strains are very unique to themselves, although it is often a little tougher to tell a Rainwater from a Tremper. It is hard to explain what to look for in words, but I'll try:

Bells are the easiest to discern, they usually have the pinkest eyes, and lavander patterns that have more "pop" to them than the others. What I mean by pop is hard to quantify, but I think many will know what I mean.

Trempers have a lot of variation in their eyes, but are usually not as pink as bells, or as grey as Rainwaters. Their patterns range from off white to brownish, sometimes with a little lavender too.

Rainwaters generally have light grey eyes, some with hints of pink. Their patterning is usually very pink to lavander, and they have what I'd describe as a very soft look. It was once considered difficult to get bright color out of Rainwaters, but Dan Lubinsky changed that.

Obviously there is more to it than I've written, and there is enough variation that makes it difficult at first to tell. With enough experience I think it becomes quite easy to tell the difference.

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[geckolabs]

I definitely don't think there are many people up to the task of responsibly breeding leopard geckos of unknown genetics. On the other hand, I disagree completely that it is difficult to tell apart the albino stains. There are certainly a few geckos out there that I couldn't be confident on, but not many. All three albino strains are very unique to themselves, although it is often a little tougher to tell a Rainwater from a Tremper. It is hard to explain what to look for in words, but I'll try:

Bells are the easiest to discern, they usually have the pinkest eyes, and lavander patterns that have more "pop" to them than the others. What I mean by pop is hard to quantify, but I think many will know what I mean.

Trempers have a lot of variation in their eyes, but are usually not as pink as bells, or as grey as Rainwaters. Their patterns range from off white to brownish, sometimes with a little lavender too.

Rainwaters generally have light grey eyes, some with hints of pink. Their patterning is usually very pink to lavander, and they have what I'd describe as a very soft look. It was once considered difficult to get bright color out of Rainwaters, but Dan Lubinsky changed that.

Obviously there is more to it than I've written, and there is enough variation that makes it difficult at first to tell. With enough experience I think it becomes quite easy to tell the difference.

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And that attitude is part of one of the biggest problems in the hobby today. With the amount of linebreeding that has happened, they are not discernible with confidence, yet newcomers will read what you've typed there, and ignore everything else. Are there a good handful of albinos that are slap-you-in-the-face examples of one particular strain? Absolutely, to experienced people.

There are far more people irresponsibly breeding pet quality geckos and trying to pass them into the market than you realize. Pushing the notion that they albinos are identifiable without lineage only makes it worse. Especially when you also don't mention that being visual for one strain doesn't mean they aren't carrying other strains.

The market is already muddy enough as it is.

 

[DiAmoroso]

The bigger problem here is that new gecko keepers come to this forum asking for help, and they get a bunch of garbage about not being able to tell what strain the gecko is. This forum used to be very active and filled with knowledgeable, experienced breeders and keepers. Now it's become a ghost town, mostly populated by semi beginners who read a few threads and think they're experts. Our community will only continue to dwindle if we can't be helpful to the new comers. The original poster made no comment about breeding, there is no reason not to identify their animal, especially considering it is very obviously a Tremper.

There absolutely has not been any where near enough line breeding to make it this difficult. Some of the hyperxanthic Trempers look sort of like Bells, and yes, it's impossible to tell a Rainwater Patternless or Blizzard from the Tremper version. Patterned animals from any strain can easily be identified by experienced eyes, and quite frankly there aren't enough hyperxanthic Trempers out there to worry about someone making that mistake.

The bottom line is that when someone comes to this forum for help, they should receive it. Every thread doesn't have to be a debate over substrate and breeding ethics. People probably should not breed geckos if they don't have records of the genetics, but some will regardless, so the best thing to do is offer help.

The muddy waters theory is over blown. There are certainly naive people out there who occasionally cross albino genetics, but it's really not hard to recognize a breeder who knows what they're doing, and who you can put trust in what you're getting. If you can't tell the albinos apart that is your problem, and no one else's. You'd be best off trying to learn how if you plan on breeding, as a breeder of any type of animal should be extremely knowledgeable about what they're working with.

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[Neon Aurora]

IMO, just because the OP did not say anything about breeding does not change the fact that other people can read this post and think the albino they bought a chain pet store is a suitable breeder because they can tell what strain of albino it is. No, I'm not the most experienced breeder here, but I have worked hard to get where I am and I think I'm doing fine. It seems only responsible to not guess at a gecko's genetics and to discourage people from breeding animals they cannot trace back. For all you know, this gecko (or any other unknown albino you identify) could be het for another strain of albino.

 

[Ruvik]

I agree with Neon's post. If I am buying an animal (ANY ANIMAL) from a breeder and I am looking to breed for a specific trait, I want to know what I am breeding spot on. If there are people taking guess as to what albino they MAY have and breeding it. I don't want to buy from them. I want to know that the animal I bought when i breed will give me my percent chance that I should be getting and not have random genetics show up. In the long run, informing new breeders and just new people to geckos about not trying to guess the genes of a gecko when bought from a store is helping them out. If they ever start breeding and learn to buy from breeders that can trace back their genes, they can sell those young for a nice price for what they actually are. Not what they are assuming they are. I think it is fun to try and guess at what they might be. But warning people about not breeding those animals and how guessing could be bad is helping out big time with educating new animal breeders and New animal owners.

I don't think anyone should be Bashed or ranted at for their opinions on this topic because truly when you look at it over all. Everyone's heart is in the right place and they are just trying to help. So instead of going at each other's throat. Try and reach a middle ground.

Guess at what gene it could be cause it's a pretty fun thing to do, but... Warn them about how if they start breeding what could happen and how it could effect the prices, sales, and reputation as a breeder.

 

[brendan0923]

Didn't expect the thread to go this way! But since we're discussing it, I'll throw my 2 cents in:

I am not going to breed her. Originally, when I got her almost a year ago, I did have plans to breed. However, some research led me to believe that it wasn't the best idea. I was just curious to see if there was a way to figure out which albino she is based on physical characteristics. I constantly get people saying "oh it's definitley a tremper" and others saying "yeah she is definitley a bell" and stuff like that. So I decided to ask this question to see if there was a definite way to determine what albino she is, and there is still uncertainty! I definitley do not want to breed and sell the offspring as one thing and it ends up being another. Also, I don't want to try breeding to a bell albino and she's actually a tremper or something.

This, personally, is one thing that confused my greatly about leopard geckos. Extensive selective breeding has created a captive population of "mutts" whose genes can only be determined either: 1) by test breeding or 2) having lineage records, which as I read more and more about, turned me off from attempting to breed a pet store gecko. The leopard gecko market is absolutley saturated with all kinds of different crosses and stuff. While I admit, a lot of them are really cool, it's definitley a lot to wrap your head around before attempting to breed.

Also, I do have a question, just curious: do these morphs come from seperate populations, or is it simply different traits exhibited by a polymorphic species and then just line-bred for that trait? Also, does inbreeding depression ever become a problem, or are they outcrossed to prevent that?

Regardless, I probably will breed leos at some point, but I want to know what genes I'm working with first![emoji2]

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[DiAmoroso]

Most of you are completely missing the point, and just beating a dead horse. There are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads in this forum on the ethics of breeding, it doesn't need to be brought up every time someone asks what morph they have.

Again, it is possible for a leopard gecko to carry multiple albino genes, but it is not nearly as common as you seem to think it is. Beginners should not be breeding geckos they do not know the genetics of, but they will any way.

The bottom line is that is a Tremper albino. It is easy to visually tell this, but yes it's impossible to know what hets it may carry. Hets don't matter until the poster brings up needing. It's even possible it is a double homozygous for Tremper and another, but it is so unlikely that it is worthless to bring it up.

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[DiAmoroso]

Brendan, the three albinos all popped out of different populations, and are proven to be different traits. The names of the types take the last name of the original breeder, or in some cases the area the breeder is from. For example, some may call a Rainwater a Las Vegas.

Also, inbreeding has been a problem for a long time. This is likely why we see so many geckos with over bites, kinked tails, etc. Outcrossing is very important.


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[brendan0923]

Brendan, the three albinos all popped out of different populations, and are proven to be different traits. The names of the types take the last name of the original breeder, or in some cases the area the breeder is from. For example, some may call a Rainwater a Las Vegas.

Also, inbreeding has been a problem for a long time. This is likely why we see so many geckos with over bites, kinked tails, etc. Outcrossing is very important.


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Ah, I see. So is outbreeding depression a reason why people don't want to cross albinos? Or are there other issues associated with crossed albinos?

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[DiAmoroso]

No, inbreeding has nothing to do with crossing the different albino stains. The problem is that since they are three distinctly different mutations, we must protect their purity. If you were to breed a Tremper to a Bell, you would not produce albinos, but double hets for both albinos. Breed those hets together and you will end up with a mix of Bells, Trempers, hets for both and even animals that display both Tremper and Bell at the same time. Once you do this, the work to figure out what is what becomes overwhelming. We don't breed different albinos together to avoid losing the pure albino stains.

There is a sticky titled Muddy Waters you should read for more compete information.

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[brendan0923]

No, inbreeding has nothing to do with crossing the different albino stains. The problem is that since they are three distinctly different mutations, we must protect their purity. If you were to breed a Tremper to a Bell, you would not produce albinos, but double hets for both albinos. Breed those hets together and you will end up with a mix of Bells, Trempers, hets for both and even animals that display both Tremper and Bell at the same time. Once you do this, the work to figure out what is what becomes overwhelming. We don't breed different albinos together to avoid losing the pure albino stains.

There is a sticky titled Muddy Waters you should read for more compete information.

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Gotcha. However what was referring to is not inbreeding, but outbreeding, which goes along with what you said about protecting morph integrity. I was asking if this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression would become a problem. And thanks, I'll check out that thread!

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[DiAmoroso]

I see, I hadn't heard of out breeding depression before only inbreeding. I followed your link though, and I've never heard of anything like that in Leos. As is, the majority of captive bred Leos in the US are already mixes of the wild localities. Out crossing to unrelated animals is generally considered a positive within Leos.

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[brendan0923]

I see, I hadn't heard of out breeding depression before only inbreeding. I followed your link though, and I've never heard of anything like that in Leos. As is, the majority of captive bred Leos in the US are already mixes of the wild localities. Out crossing to unrelated animals is generally considered a positive within Leos.

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Yeah, I was wondering if this was considered an issue in the leopard gecko hobby. I figured that outbreeding depression could possibly occur in albinos since they are from seperate populations, and I wondered if that's why people don't want to cross albinos. Just a guess, but I'm not sure.

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