TRYING TO FINE THE TRUTH ON THE THREE ALBINO STRAINS QUESTION? >

[spydermonkey281]

Hey, guys I've been breeding leo's for over seven years and just want to hear your input on this . I'am looking to exploring the difference of the three albino strains, through test breeding (YES, I will be crossing the albino strains (A BIG SIN!) ) but just listen to the rest of what I have to say. Im assuming that there is a TRUE ALBINO strain still to be discover one where the animal is solid white with red eye. I will be doing DNA testing through a university to see if any of the albino strains are the same and if they aline with true albino reptiles genes. For example my thought is to get either and albino blue tongue skins DNA or an Albino iguanas DNA and test the DNA to see if they match with any of the three strains to find the TRUE albino strain in leopard geckos if one exists. In my time breeding I have watched one video of a person crossing the albino strains and getting an albino. could the lines he muddy yes! that is a possibility. But I am wanting to do an I DEPTH Research study into the albino straits to determine the truth on the three albino strains and if there is a TRUE ALBINO STRAIN. We have test breedings from big breeders and there word but we don't have DNA testing through gel electrophoresis or other complex machines that a university might have. I want to hear only what big breeders would you purchase the geckos from to do this research? (I would only be obtaining pure tempers, pure bells, pure las vegas, and A pure normal) to limit unwanted gene such as eclipse that might effect results. What Breeder(s) would you suggest from me to purchase these pure animals from? (I'm thinking Ron Tremper) is there any others you would trust ? Also how big do you think the sample size should be? my thought is 9-16? I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANY CRAP ABOUT I SHOULD DO THIS! THIS IS PURELY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH TO EXPLORE GENETICS AND THE TRUTH of what we currently have and what could be out there still!

 

[Neon Aurora]

TRYING TO FINE THE TRUTH ON THE THREE ALBINO STRAINS QUESTION? >

This sounds like an interesting project, but I'm curious. What leads you to believe that investigating the differences between the 3 "albino" strains will bring you to conclusion about true albinism in leopard geckos? What we label as albino is not true albinism (rather, amelanism) and I'm not sure anyone knows if it is even linked to true albinism.

Also (I'm not giving you crap, it's just a question), what is the purpose of crossing the albino strains? Since crossing two different strains does not yield visually "albino" animals, the genes are likely located at different loci. Surely you could identify these loci by just looking at the DNA of animals from each strain? Then you would automatically know if they are compatible. As always, the 3 Rs in animal studies are important (replacement, reduction, and refinement) the less animals you need the better, especially when producing ones that may not be necessary. Surely any information you acquire through sequencing DNA is going to be more valuable than anecdotes about the phenotypes of crossed animals (especially considering people have already done this and been shown not to produce visual "albinos"). Of course, I don't see any harm in doing it if you intend to keep the animals produced.

Will you be sequencing DNA from wild-type animals to compare with the DNA from non-wild-types?

Personally I think you'll find that the gene/s causing albinism in iguanas will not be the same as the gene/s causing amelanism in leopard geckos. There probably just hasn't been a mutation yet for true albinism in leopard geckos. (Just my hypothesis)

After a small bit of reading (wasn't able to do much, should be studying!) it seems that truly albino reptiles are rare. "Albino" crocodiles are often afflicted with blindness because of problems during migration of pigment cells (so different than true albinism such as in mice), and often white can be caused by other things, like leucism. Considering that it seems to be rare, I wonder if the mutation could be linked with another gene that causes death of the embryo? Who knows.

I would think any of the major reputable breeders would be fine. As for your sample size, I would imagine you would only need a couple high quality animals of each strain since you can be pretty confident about their genetics. Preferably not closely related. What is going to be done with the animals after your project?

I'm studying biology and would love to hear more about your project. I'm not criticizing, just asking questions.

 

[Neon Aurora]

TRYING TO FINE THE TRUTH ON THE THREE ALBINO STRAINS QUESTION? >

Thought of a few more things. Posted in a rush earlier.

1) Without a complete genome and information on what the genes do, I don't think you're going to be able to even identify the one you're after. You'll just sequence a long string of A's, C's, T's, and G's. How will you identify the gene? You could identify them, but that would cost a lot of time and money. First post was based on if you HAD the genome already, which I wasn't totally confident that we didn't. But we don't.
2) Funding? You'll need more than the gel. You'll need PCR machine, primers (plus you'll have to design them or have someone make them for you), bacterial vectors for storing the DNA, a sequencer machine (very expensive). In other words, this would be expensive enough to need to be a formal study with the PI and everything.

Not that I have a PhD or anything, I'm just a student. I'm just wondering how you'll make this work. This honestly sounds like a huge project. Sequencing the leopard gecko genome alone would probably take several years with a full team of scientists.

It sounds like an interesting project, but I'm not sure it's do-able.

EDIT:
http://www.geckotime.com/leopard-geckos-hobby-developing-artistic-science/

Leopard gecko genome project. Obviously a huge project. If this was complete, than this project you want to do would all of a sudden be much more possible with the right funding.

 

[spydermonkey281]

.

Thats super interesting! Thank you for your comment that helps give me more of an insight to these genes and how to edit my experiment when I go to propose the idea! And sorry for the "Crap thing" honestly I just didn't want to hear people say I shouldn't cross them! its been done! etc.

To be honest I had no clue the genes were truly considered amelanism. ( i knew they weren't true albinos though. Thats another factor I will have to look into. Right now Im looking into a viable project with genetics regarding leopard geckos.

My thought is that maybe the amelanism and albinism might be very close to each other genetically. I know albinism has varying degrees of expression like some albinos only have the hair color and not red eyes or some have more expression of darker pigments than others. My thought is if the claimed 3 albinos strains "which are really amelanism animals", do not line up with another reptiles albinism DNA. Then by the fault the true albino gene in leopard geckos has yet to be discovered. or maybe the amelanism is linked to albinism in a slight way maybe it codes for a specific protein or a similar protein maybe even possible blocking the true albino gene in these animals.

Often times genes interfere with crossing over for example they might be so close on the chromosome they cannot cross over for example (for the longest time we have not gotten bell patternless (until avengel reptiles produced one bell patternless)) But how did this occur? if he produced one and all the other big breeders couldn't. It makes you wonder was his lineage unique maybe i don't know. So on to your one question. I think it is a possibility that the 3 strains might be linked in some way to each other or possibly to albinism that what I want to explore.

Of course the DNA obtained will be more valuable than, the breeding of the offspring because they are qualitative result, but what happens when you cross one of the three strains of amelansim and a amelansim animal pops out as one of the offspring. then further DNA Testing would have to be done on these animals to tell why this occurred. (Numbers in theory work out but biology sometimes have surprises)(Ex. I breed two visual eclipse together and got het eclipses (you just never know)) With the offspring produced i would record what happened with the F1 generation and possibly look at a similar DNA sequence to observe what happened and If the animal truly carries both albino traits. And if what we are told is true. I will petshop off the animals as pet only or give them away. (THEY WOULD NOT BE USED FOR BREEDING purposes EVER)

To your other question yes I would sequencing or compare a wild type DNA to compare with a non wild type DNA as a control to the experiment.

As for your other question in humans and other animals there are research papers that explore albinos with DNA and what Things could help isolate certain attributes of the DNA. One would expand and apply others work to theres to try to speed up the process. The university has a PCR machine, it wouldn't just be gel I was just giving a quick example.

As for if its do-able I'm still doing more research into that but it does hold promise never the less
one has to play around with an idea in order to perfect it.

Thanks you so much on your input It helps me think of what to do. for this research and what to propose. If you have any ideas of how I can edit my proposal please let me know what you think about it. I want this thread to be a brain storming link were I can gather ideas and hopefully explore the idea.

 

[Neon Aurora]

So I think you're missing a very important point; This is not possible without a complete genome. Getting genomes is not a one-man project and it's also not a cheap one. Leopard geckos have 4,500,000,000 nucleotides. The leopard gecko genome project is already underway, but it is not done yet. This idea would be much more valid in the future when the genome has been sequenced.

From the article I posted:

Such a project would involve isolating the DNA from the cells, so that the DNA is the only part of the cells in a sample (figure 1E, 2B.) From there, the DNA can be sequenced and analyzed in a number of fashions. The end result would be the data, being the sequence of the nucleotides in the genome. Nucleotides are the unit of information that makes the genome. There are four nucleotides, which are denoted A, T, C, and G (figure 1F.) To offer an idea of the vastness of a genome, Leopard Gecko genome is estimated to contain over 4,500,000,000 nucleotides[SUP]1[/SUP]. Once all of the sequencing data is available, it would need to be assembled in a linear fashion (figure 2), much like reading a book. There is currently a draft genome being worked on for leopard geckos, meaning that the sequencing is not yet finished, and the next step would be assembly of the sequences.
Once the reference genome is assembled, the genomes of animals with pure traits (i.e. pure Blizzard, with no heterozygosity) will be compared to the reference to identify the exclusive differences. The identification of such differences is not guaranteed, or even highly likely, and may often require samples to be run multiple times before finding the differences sought after. This task is not one that will be easy, or cheap, but at least needs to be attempted to advance our beloved hobby. Once all of these differences are identified, animals will be able to be genotyped. However, keep in mind, that the process will be a long and winding road, filled with hurdles, troubleshooting, insignificant results, and so on.

http://www.geckotime.com/leopard-gec...istic-science/

You're not going to get an amelanistic animal by crossing the different strains. They have already been shown to be incompatible. People cross them all the time and end up with wild-types. Occasionally people do get albinos, but this is always because the animal was het for that strain of albino. You see it all the time in pet animals when people breed them. People breed their two normals and out pops albinos. Probably because so many pet animals are het for tremper. This is the problem with unknown genetics.
I really can't support you crossing them because it is pointless. The Leopard gecko genome project's goal is to help people avoid the exact problem you will contribute to if you choose to cross them. Selling them at petshops will not guarantee they don't get into the breeding stock. People buy geckos from petstores all the time and breed them.
Even if you did produce an albino animals by crossing strains, you still don't have a complete genome to compare to.

You will never breed two visual eclipses together and get animals het for eclipse. Reference Gregor Mendel's work for this. You might get animals that don't appear eclipse (I have one that is but does not look it), but they are. One allele is attained from each parent. If the parents only have the mutant alleles at that loci, it is literally impossible for them to pass anything else down because there is nothing else present.

Universities don't allow you to use their machines and equipment for free. You need funding and your study needs to be approved. This would have to be a formal study, it's the only way it would work (unless you have quite a lot of extra money). Who will make your primers? Who will run the machines? Who will analyze the huge amounts of data produced to sequence a genome?

 

[spydermonkey281]

See that is the reason I said I Didn't need any crap about breeding the three albino strains together. You say that people have done it time and time again but where have you seen an actual project get documented of them for other people to see? I haven't found one that proves the claim. One of the only times I saw a person try to document it, he purchase the animals from big breeders he got an amelanism animal. And Im telling you I breed two visual eclipse together and got two het eclipses. How would you know what I produced and didn't? Plus there is a video on youtube showing that happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWByG2NaSk

I've talked to other breeders about it and sometimes weird things happen with genetics they don't always play by the rules you assume. Thanks for your input. I have an idea of how to base my research if I go further.

 

[Neon Aurora]

I'm curious to know how you plan to do any of this without a genome.

As for how I know you didn't produce het eclipses from two visual eclipses, it's because of Gregor Mendel's work. It's very well documented and traits like eclipse follow that same theory.

I suppose you can view what I said as giving you crap, but really what I was doing was pointing out where your project is short on being thought through. Criticism is generally a good thing when it comes to science because it shows you where your thinking needs work.

That video doesn't really prove anything. I hatched out an eclipse that doesn't look like an eclipse at all. It's still an eclipse. If you breed it with another eclipse, you'll get eclipses. It's not the passing down of simple recessive alleles that's complicated. It's the passing down of polygenic traits, which come along with every morph. That's what determines whether your eclipse looks like a typical eclipse (white markers, light coloring, washed out sort of appearance) or not.

For example:
This is an eclipse:


So it this:


In the second one, you see the obvious eclipse look. In the first one you don't. Yet they are both eclipses. I struggled with identifying that first one for a long time because she came from eclipse x het eclipse, but I've come to the conclusion she is eclipse even though her appearance is very strange for one. I know because at time of hatching, she had a white nose and solid eye. If you look very closely at her eyes today, you can see the remnants of when her eyes were black. These things very quickly disappeared (not noticeable after first shed). Genetics are indeed complicated, but eclipse is simple recessive.

I think your project sounds interesting, but your methodology comes up short as far as doing it ethically (not muddying the genepool further by selling them at petshops where they could very well get crappy homes. It wouldn't be a problem if you intended to keep all of them.), and not having a genome to compare your results with. I am also curious to know how you mean to sequence all of this DNA without funding or being a researcher.

You said you wanted this to be a brainstorming thread, yet you haven't done any brainstorming on how to address the problems I have pointed out.

 

[spydermonkey281]

Im not arguing with you! It sound's like your getting argumentative and I don't want that. Thank you for your input It will be taken into consideration to look further into this matter. Im not going to write out a detailed plan on the forum of what or how I am going to test this out. That will be for when I am going to get that ball rolling. Im exploring an idea currently and that is it. Thank you for bring up good points that I will have to look further into some of the questions you raised. Sincerely, Spydermonkey281

 

[Neon Aurora]

I apologize if I came off as argumentative, that was not my intention.

I suppose I'm just hoping you aren't going to go buy a bunch of albinos and cross them when you aren't going to be able to get anything useful out of it. That's why I'm trying to emphasize the short-comings. Crossing albinos would be pointless (not to mention damaging to the community) if you couldn't analyze the DNA and I don't think that's going to be possible until the leopard gecko genome project is complete.

 

[Thorgecko707]

Hey, guys I've been breeding leo's for over seven years and just want to hear your input on this . I'am looking to exploring the difference of the three albino strains, through test breeding (YES, I will be crossing the albino strains (A BIG SIN!) ) but just listen to the rest of what I have to say. Im assuming that there is a TRUE ALBINO strain still to be discover one where the animal is solid white with red eye. I will be doing DNA testing through a university to see if any of the albino strains are the same and if they aline with true albino reptiles genes. For example my thought is to get either and albino blue tongue skins DNA or an Albino iguanas DNA and test the DNA to see if they match with any of the three strains to find the TRUE albino strain in leopard geckos if one exists. In my time breeding I have watched one video of a person crossing the albino strains and getting an albino. could the lines he muddy yes! that is a possibility. But I am wanting to do an I DEPTH Research study into the albino straits to determine the truth on the three albino strains and if there is a TRUE ALBINO STRAIN. We have test breedings from big breeders and there word but we don't have DNA testing through gel electrophoresis or other complex machines that a university might have. I want to hear only what big breeders would you purchase the geckos from to do this research? (I would only be obtaining pure tempers, pure bells, pure las vegas, and A pure normal) to limit unwanted gene such as eclipse that might effect results. What Breeder(s) would you suggest from me to purchase these pure animals from? (I'm thinking Ron Tremper) is there any others you would trust ? Also how big do you think the sample size should be? my thought is 9-16? I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANY CRAP ABOUT I SHOULD DO THIS! THIS IS PURELY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH TO EXPLORE GENETICS AND THE TRUTH of what we currently have and what could be out there still!

i am working on the genome project with a lab, not a university, so i have access to all the big expensive computers. i would be interested in collecting infertile eggs from your project if you are open to that. as for collecting the most pure animals, it is hard to say from who. even well respected breeders have said we can never know 100% if anything is a pure single gene animal.

 

[geckolabs]

Im assuming that there is a TRUE ALBINO strain still to be discover one where the animal is solid white with red eye.

Animals that appear a solid color with red eyes when albino do so due the fact they only contain limited pigment types from the start. So getting rid of that only leaves you with the option of a solid color animal.

I will be doing DNA testing through a university to see if any of the albino strains are the same and if they aline with true albino reptiles genes. For example my thought is to get either and albino blue tongue skins DNA or an Albino iguanas DNA and test the DNA to see if they match with any of the three strains to find the TRUE albino strain in leopard geckos if one exists.

Again, what you're referring to as 'true albino' would be albino and leucism, of which the leopard gecko equivalent would be an albino blizzard.

There are multiple genetic defects that are associated with albinism across species, that are spread throughout a few different molecular pathways.

But I am wanting to do an I DEPTH Research study into the albino straits to determine the truth on the three albino strains and if there is a TRUE ALBINO STRAIN.

What 'truth' are you looking to uncover? All three types of albinism found in leopard geckos are tyrosinase positive albinos. That has been proven. It's also been proven that the alleles are different since they do not cooperate with one another. All three of them are 'true' types of albino.

That being said, you'd need a baseline genome from normals, which is already being assembled, as part of the 10K genome project, a project geared toward increasing variety of species used for research. From that, you'd need to sequence your samples and identify the SNPs associated with each strain of albino, as they differ from one another, and from the baseline. You'd need a sample size of at least 3 for each type of albino to ensure reproducibility of the SNPs. Then beyond that, to be able to test animals for the type, you'd need to then spend time designing primers or probes specific to the region containing the SNPs such that you would get type-specific resolution between animals and be able to indicate homo- and hetero-zygosity.

The project you're describing, especially at the level of resolution you're aiming to achieve, is going to be well beyond running some PCRs and some gels. You need high-throughput sequencing of the animals involved in attempt to identify the SNPs at the loci involved. The odds of identifying them on the first attempted sequencing runs are slim, meaning that the first $15k running the sequencing samples are likely to be a waste. Should you actually identify them, you'll need to have people actually coherent at reading and putting together such analyses, which is going to take time. Time and manpower isn't free.

The sequencing of the reference genome has been complete for roughly 2 years now, and it has been sitting in leeway since, while it is working on being assembled, to give you a better idea of the time investment involved (and that is only for the reference genome.)

Overall a great idea, though not cheap by any means, and it's something already being worked upon from a few different angles.

 

[Neon Aurora]

GeckoLabs, Thank you for explaining this better than me. My undergraduate biology student mind couldn't put it together as well as you did.

 

[Alceste]

Your conception of genetics from the point of view of the designer morph trade is a bit skewed. When you say "true albino" your describing a set of visual qualifications that satisfy your own requirements and hoping there is a genotype that matches. Ultimately yes, the genetics that are known in leopard gecko breeding will be linked to specific alleles if the genome is ever mapped. But they are the result of the existence of mutations in the population that were noticed and then proliferated by breeders. What your basically saying is that armed with a complete genome you would look to engineer animals that meet your own requirement for a "true albino". But what is the point of that? It's the equivalent looking for specific genetic markers that create enigma syndrome or other abnormalities and then calling them "true neurological disorders".

 

[Kristi23]

I also just don't understand what you're trying to prove here. Just because the testing of albinos (bred together) was done way before the forums started and everything was posted on them, doesn't mean it wasn't done with proof. None of them are compatible. There is nothing to gain from breeding them together.

As for breeding a visual (recessive gene) x visual (recessive gene), you do get 100% visual animals. You can't take something like a super snow eclipse to prove that out. Once you add snow (and other genes), it can change the look of the animals. There have been people who hatched SSE that looked like regular super snows (basically missing the typical markers) and they have proven them visual eclipse the following year. There have also been people who have bred snows that almost look eclipse, but have proven not to be. Snow changes a lot in eclipse projects. Could there be some weird genetic fluke at some point? Possibly. But it's irresponsible to go around telling people that eclipse x eclipse can give you het eclipse.

As for people arguing with you, get used to it. You're posting on a public group about genetics and people are not going to agree with you. Especially when you dispute things that have been proven over and over again. No one is calling you names or anything, so basic arguing is fine. You can't expect people in a genetics forum to just take what you say and agree without questions.

 

[Kristi23]

If your goal is to find a new albino strain (white with red eyes, which doesn't equal albino with reptiles), breeding the strains together won't do that. It's been done. However, there are albino combos that are white with red eyes. That's been done. So I still don't quite get what you're trying to prove. Even with ball pythons and boas, the albinos are yellow/pink in color. Not white.

 

[Kristi23]

Sorry about my one post, I thought you were telling Dillon his concept was skewed. I edited it and removed that sentence.