Wild v.s. captive enclosure/supplements

[bubblez825]

Now, before I begin, I am not posting this to start an argument, heat up any hot heads on here, say anyone is right or calling anyone a liar, spread false/faulty information, or do anything other than ask for facts and possibly some opinions. Keep this thread calm guys!

Reading through all the supplementing and housing posts, I keep seeing posts about geckos needing belly heat to digest, supplements to thrive, feeders dusted all the time, calcium in a dish, no lights or UVB lights, etc.

But what do leopard geckos get in the wild? They are mostly active during the dawn and dusk hours, but how do they get all the supposed nutrients and supplements, special underbelly heat, special diets and such in the wild? I highly doubt they get all that luxury :main_laugh: my proposition is, with leopard geckos in the wild only getting nutrients from what they eat, and also WILL be getting UVB from the sun if they lay on a rock or warm ground for belly heat, as well as having all around cooler temperatures at night, why is all this necessary?


I have been keeping leopard geckos for nearly 8 years now, and have never once dusted my feeders with any sort I supplement. My geckos will not eat anything with calcium on it no matter what brand it is. I keep regular calcium in my girl's tanks, and I'm assuming it gets licked from time to time, but I can never be sure. I also keep my under tank heaters off during the hottest two or three months here in Arizona. My geckos are fed solely gut loaded(with oatmeal, any left over dried up greens from my dragons, carrots, and a blend of a few different grains) mealworms, and occasionally oatmeal gut loaded super worms. I keep my Leo's on paper towels in glass terrariums with screen lids, with at least one hide per gecko and a humid hide.

Now, doing this the way I have been, I have never once had a problem with MBD, dull colors, sickness, lack of appetite, regurgitating food, impaction, parasites, decrease in weight/size, or any other possible negativity that is said to come from "not following the exact husbandry *rules*". I also in no way ever neglect or malnourish my geckos, They're well fed and kept in clean, spacious environments, very active, friendly, and fat as can be.

Now, my questions are, are illnesses supposedly caused by lack of things not found in the wild, possibly caused by bad husbandry? Do our geckos really need all the "extras" we give them? Have studies with wild geckos vs captive bred geckos really shown the necessity of the "if you don't do this your gecko will die" additions to the diet and techniques?


ONCE AGAIN! This is JUST a discussion. Please do not slam me and my choices and care techniques or tell me I'm a terrible owner or anything. I'm opening this discussion up to see what you as a gecko community have to say about YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCES, not what you have been told or read.


Talk to me, what do you guys think

 

[Ozy]

Well I've done a lot of reading on leopard geckos. I read a study where a leopard gecko's back was shown to absorb 55% more UVB than a bearded dragon's back. So by being out at twilight they get enough UVB even though the sun is weak. They come out at twilight and lie on rocks that have been warmed by the sun all day. I personally dust every feeder with Repashy Calcium Plus. This gives my leo the Vitamin D and such that she would get from the sun. Also, you have to take into account that leopard geckos in the wild have a highly varied diet. They will eat anything from insects to small mice, as long as they can crush it with their jaws and swallow it. This gives them a MUCH wider variety of vitamins and such, because no matter how much we try the variety we give them in captivity is comparably limited. And in my opinion, pet leopard geckos are very different from wild ones. These have been bred in captivity for a long time and, as such, have adapted differently. So in my opinion, comparing a captive bred gecko to a wild one is like comparing an apple and a banana. I believe illnesses are caused by a variety of things. Not only bad husbandry, but not keeping their cage clean, not removing stuck shed, removing shed on sensitive areas such as the eyes (I think this should ONLY be done by a vet in a sterile environment).. there are MANY factors that can contribute to illnesses.

 

[Ozy]

So in a nutshell, they DO get belly heat in the wild, they DO dig down into the ground to reach high humidity areas to aid in shedding, this also helps them stay hydrated AND keeps them from getting too hot during the day. And why NOT give your leo "extras"? Personally I think if you aren't going to spoil your pet, don't have it. Like you wouldn't want to live on JUST what you NEED. (AKA food, water, shelter) You like having a computer, cell phone and all the "extras"

 

[M_surinamensis]

how do they get all the supposed nutrients and supplements, special underbelly heat, special diets and such in the wild?

Ozy mentions a varied diet, and that's pretty much the key.

Set aside the idea of vertebrate prey; it's possible and leos are opportunistic enough that one which happens to stumble across some baby rodents that are small enough and immobile enough and unattended might try one, but it would be exceedingly rare.

They eat a wider variety of invertebrate prey though and that prey itself is feeding on a much more comprehensive and varied diet. The nutritional composition of a domesticated cricket or a mealworm, especially raised on the limited diets that are necessary for successful commercial breeding and sale, is not identical to the nutritional content of the analogous species that are going to be found in wild environments. These insects available at your local pet store are substitutes. Substitutes chosen because they breed easily and in large numbers, chosen because the insects themselves are opportunistic feeders that can be raised without needing to be fed specific species of plant from the Afghanistan foothills.

Because we are feeding substitutes, we need to fill in the nutritional differences, bolster the nutritional content of the insect through gut-loading (literally the contents of the digestive system of an insect, a very small volume of space), dusting or independent supplementation, such that the cumulative nutritional content meets the specific requirements of the animal we're keeping.

Of course... those specific requirements change. By species, certainly. By age, by gender, by overall health, based on unique conditions, based on minute environmental differences, based on what the animal in question ate last week, last month, last year. I doubt most owners are performing a comprehensive nutritional panel before every feeding in order to determine the exact needs of their individual geckos. The reasonable approach is to aim for nutritional generalizations and then alter the intake as more overt indicators become present... assuming that the owner in question is competent enough to make that determination (most aren't).

Over-supplementation and unnecessary supplementation are absolutely commonplace, they're just less likely to lead to acute issues in most instances than a failure to provide adequate nutritional content. It's easier for someone to underdose without realizing it than overdose and the animal has some inherent capability for filtering toxic levels of vitamins, but a limited or absent capability for synthesis of nutrients that have been entirely neglected. Plain calcium being less problematic and dangerous than vitamins with regard to toxicity issues.

 

[lisa127]

Wild insects are much more nutritious for reptiles than our pet store insects, as explained in detail above.

As for belly heat, yes they need it. However, in captivity a UTH is not the only way to get belly heat. If you use a blue night glo bulb for heat, that in turn will heat up surfaces in the enclosure. Like rocks, hides, the ground, etc. Just like the sun does in nature. So you are still getting belly heat for your leo.

There are also natural "humid hides" in nature that they seek out.

 

[bubblez825]

That makes sense, thank you all for all the information it cleared up a lot of confusion I had