HELP should I be worried!

Female gecko, aged about 1.5 years, should this spot be worrying me?

Some organs and especially food (future fecal matter inside them) can be seen through the belly. If that spot stays exactly the same over 3-4 days, please post a clearer picture?

It is very likely just food going through the body. If he eats more, the dark spot gets bigger...if he poops the spot will probably shrink. It doesn't look like alot of food in there...is he eating a healthy amount of food?

She seems ok, it's just that two of the geckos I kept with her died a month ago from being very lethargic and when they passed they each had a prominent green spot on their undersides as well as eyes that sort of sank into their heads, and theres no reptile vet for miles around, so really I'm relying on advice from this forum:/ she is quite large, has a very fat tail and seems to be getting plenty of food, and she pooped yesterday, so there don't appear to be any danger bells.

Look, here she is now, she looks pretty much fine.

You should copy/paste the questionaire that is stickied at the top of this Health & Medication section. If 2 cage-mates just died, it sounds like somethings is DEFINTELY wrong...

If you added a new gecko within the last 3-4 months, then it may have brought something contagious with it. You can take a fecal sample to most vets for a $15-$25 parasite test. It may also be something "environmental" or something wrong with their supplements/diet...?? You really need to fill out the questionaire so we can study the whole situation.

About your leo:
- Sex FEMALE
- Age & Weight 1.5 YEARS NOT BEEN WEIGHED RECENTLY
- How long have you owned your leo 1 YEAR
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend) PET STORE


A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your Leo ONCE A DAY
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now. -MORE LETHARGIC, NOT EATING, EYES SLIGHTLY SUNKEN, GREEN SPOT ON UNDERSIDE, AGITATED
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. NONE AT ALL
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal) NORMAL
- When was the last time he/she went ABOUT 30 MINS AGO
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on GREEN SPOT ON UNDERSIDE AND EYES LOOK 'SUNKEN'. SEEMS TO BE GETTING WEAKER


Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size 1 METRE BY 40 CM
- Type (ex. glass tank) VIVARIUM- WOOD WITH GLASS DOORS
- Type of substrate REPTILE CARPET
- Hides, how many, what kind ONE 'EXO TERRA BUFFALO SKULL' ONE MOIST HIDE AND ONE CORNER HIDE
B) Heating
- Heat source HEAT MAT, LIGHT
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side) HOT SIDE- 28° COLD SIDE- 20°
- Method of regulating heat source ATTACHMENT TO HEAT MAT
- What are you using to measure your temps THERMOMETERS
- Do you have any lights (describe) NORMAL LIGHT BULB, PREVIOUSLY BASKING BULB
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females) PREVIOUSLY ONE MALE AND ONE FEMALE BUT PASSED, NOW TWO FEMALES
- Describe health, or previous problems PREVIOUS FEMALE DIED OF SIMILAR CAUSES, AS DID MALE, I BOUGHT THE TWO FEMALES SHE LIVES WITH NOW AFTER THOSE GECKOS PASSED. THESE NEW GECKOS ARE IN PERFECT HEALTH.


Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet CRICKETS, MEALWORMS, WAXWORMS, LOCUSTS
- What you're feeding (how often, how much) CRICKETS, 3 A DAY, DISH OF MEALWORMS
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect) CRICKETS TO BE HUNTED, DISH FOR MEALWORMS
B) Supplements (describe how often) WITH CRICKETS
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands) 'pro rep calci dust' + water supplement
- What are you gut loading food with POTATO, APPLE, OATS

adamday7 said:

C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females) PREVIOUSLY ONE MALE AND ONE FEMALE BUT PASSED, NOW TWO FEMALES
- Describe health, or previous problems PREVIOUS FEMALE DIED OF SIMILAR CAUSES, AS DID MALE, I BOUGHT THE TWO FEMALES SHE LIVES WITH NOW AFTER THOSE GECKOS PASSED. THESE NEW GECKOS ARE IN PERFECT HEALTH.


Describe Diet:
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands) 'pro rep calci dust' + water supplement

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How long did you have the 2 cagemates that passed away? Was 1 (or both) of the 2 cagemates (that passed away) added to this tank recently?

It is very possible that one of the first 2 cagemates brought something contagious when it was purchased. If a gecko with a "contagious condition" is put in a tank with other geckos, it will progressively infect/affect the others...possibly even the 2 new geckos you just put in.

^^Speaking of the 2 new geckos: Geckos should be quarantined until they have been determined to be healthy before you add them to a tank with other geckos. In this case, I would have recommended to keep your "survivor" (of the 3 originals) in the tank alone until I found out why the other 2 passed away.

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I am not familiar with those supplements, but generally, just make sure that the supplements provide:

a) moderate amounts of Calcium+D3 (with D3)
b) daily dusting with Calcium-D3 (without D3)
c) a routine Multivitamin (per instructions...varies with the Brand of MV)

tb144050 said:

How long did you have the 2 cagemates that passed away? Was 1 (or both) of the 2 cagemates (that passed away) added to this tank recently?

It is very possible that one of the first 2 cagemates brought something contagious when it was purchased. If a gecko with a "contagious condition" is put in a tank with other geckos, it will progressively infect/affect the others...possibly even the 2 new geckos you just put in.

^^Speaking of the 2 new geckos: Geckos should be quarantined until they have been determined to be healthy before you add them to a tank with other geckos. In this case, I would have recommended to keep your "survivor" (of the 3 originals) in the tank alone until I found out why the other 2 passed away.

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I am not familiar with those supplements, but generally, just make sure that the supplements provide:

a) moderate amounts of Calcium+D3 (with D3)
b) daily dusting with Calcium-D3 (without D3)
c) a routine Multivitamin (per instructions...varies with the Brand of MV)

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the two that passed were purchased with the surviving gecko; I had them all for around 1 year

adamday7 said:

the two that passed were purchased with the surviving gecko; I had them all for around 1 year

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Ok...that rules out my first suspicion that "new additions brought in parasites/illness." It's not impossible that parasites/illness got to the tank through another method.

You have the most important part of a gecko's habitat, the UTH, but you need to make sure the warmside FLOOR temp is about 90F on the surface. You mentioned that the "warm side temp is 28C" (82.4F) but that is the airtemp, right? That's a nice airtemp but the floor temp is more important.

Review your supplements to make sure they (all 3) weren't suffering from supplement deficiencies...

It is definitely recommended to, at the least, take a fecal sample to your local vet to test for parasites. This is usually cheaper than taking the gecko in for a "gecko exam", but in your case you may want to get the whole exam because these circumstances don't suggess a high-risk of parasite infection (from new geckos being added).

Thanks everyone who posted, unfortunately she died this morning. What I will do is with the two geckos I have now (enigma and patternless, both female) I will take a stool sample whenever I have the 'necessary requirements' to the vets ASAP, to see what they make of it.

Did you ever confirm your warmside floor temp of 90 degrees F?
Did you confirm your supplements meet the requirements of their diet?

Those are the 2 main non-illness issues that I would think to be capable of affecting all 3. If your UTH stopped heating to 90F, their digestion would be lacking. If your supplementation has been lacking, it could take a year before becoming a critical issue.




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In preparation for the worst situation:

If the previous 3 Leo's were infected with a contagious parasite, it might take a few months before the parasite is detectable on a fecal test. I thiiiiiink parasite tests are recommended as a series of tests (roughly once/month) to monitor for the "shedding cycle" of the parasite. Please google "leopard gecko crypto test" for more info about (possibly) the worst parasite.


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If you have an extra (cheap) enclosure, I would move them into it to get the 2 new geckos out of that tank. Don't re-use ANY of the item you were using before: hides, food & water bowls, carpet, etc.. If possible, quarantine them from each other as well....just in case one gecko has not been infected.

You can use rubbermaid bins, buy one extra UTH (for a total of 2 UTH's), and use empty plastic bowl-hides and papertowel substrate.....this is a low-cost quarantine setup.

Yeah the floor temp was 88°F, so that's ok.
I've completely disinfected the tank, and all the contents, will that not be ok? The problem is that the only vets anywhere near me are just general, not reptile, so I'm not sure what they could do:/

Most vets can still do the "fecal exams" or atleast mail it in for fecal exams.

If it is the worst parasite, Crypto, this parasite is very resilient and even has high survival rate against ammonia (a very strong cleaner).

Will try and get one to them tomorrow after school. Ooh, that doesn't sound good I take it there are other parasites though? I think that there must have been a bad box of food or something like that, but you can't prove anything eh. Will definitely get this sorted for my two remaining geckos- they have right personalities.

Most vets will perform a Necropsy (autopsy) to determine why your Leo passed away, but that is more costly than fecal exams. Both methods would provide valuable information, but I would start with the necropsy if possible.

What "box of food" were you feeding?

and

Did you ever confirm that you supplements met the requirements? I don't know all the possible supplements but this forum and google are a good place to search (or post) for answers to that.

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Overall, I think it is safe to say that they all probably passed from the same reason. So it's probably something infectious/contagious OR it was something in their shared environment (including possible vitamin deficiencies for the year).

Whatever it is, it ...ummmm.... "negatively affected" your other Leo's...and it can probably be "negatively affecting" your 2 new Leo's in the same tank&conditions.

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edit: and yeah, there are other illnesses and parasites that are very treatable/maintainable. Crypto just happens to be the worst parasite I know of because it tends to spread like the plague. It would be strange if your Leo's passed from Crypto after being "quarantined" from the world for a year (with no new Leo's added to the tank or even in the house).

Crypto is so resilient, it can survive on dry surface for "long periods of time" (months if I remember right). It is always possible to get Crypto from crickets that you got at a petstore (or similar chain of events).

Such as:

a) Petstore employees handles a Leo with crypto, then handles cricket sales =0.00001% chance; or

b) Petstore employees feed the Leo's....then remove uneaten crickets (which have been eating crypto-infected-poop) and puts them back into the cricket-selling-bin = a horrible practice, but probably atleast 90% infectious if done.

DISCLAIMER/NOTE!!!!!: These probabilities are completely manifested based on no data....just completely fabricated to show:
a) the extremely low probability of scenario A
b) the extremely high spread of Crypto through scenario B, "recycled crickets" ...whether at home or in a petstore!!!!....
(not the probability that this actually happens in pet stores. Simply "if" this happened, you would probably expect a HIGH rate of Crypto-spread).

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If you can, please post some of the most recent photos of the 3 that passed away. Sometimes a photo gives visual clues.

tb144050 said:

edit: and yeah, there are other illnesses and parasites that are very treatable/maintainable. Crypto just happens to be the worst parasite I know of because it tends to spread like the plague. It would be strange if your Leo's passed from Crypto after being "quarantined" from the world for a year (with no new Leo's added to the tank or even in the house).

Crypto is so resilient, it can survive on dry surface for "long periods of time" (months if I remember right). It is always possible to get Crypto from crickets that you got at a petstore (or similar chain of events).

Such as:

a) Petstore employees handles a Leo with crypto, then handles cricket sales =0.00001% chance; or

b) Petstore employees feed the Leo's....then remove uneaten crickets (which have been eating crypto-infected-poop) and puts them back into the cricket-selling-bin = a horrible practice, but probably atleast 90% infectious if done.

Click to expand...

With Crypto, there should have been other obvious signs -- wasting away (thus why Crypto is also known as "skinny/stick tail"), regurgitation, lack of appetite, runny foul-smelling feces, etc. OP... did this gecko, or any of the others, show any of these symptoms?


Crypto oocysts (eggs, basically) do not survive dessication very well... they can, however, survive in *moist/damp* environments for many months. Other effective surface treatments for a general hobbiest/pet owner are high-power UV sterilizers, immersion in 10% household ammonia for 30 minutes, and possibly immersion/soaking in a 6% or higher hydrogen peroxide solution (not the household version, which is only 3%) for 15 minutes.

The pet store cricket scenario is extremely unlikely. And I'm not sure where you got your infection rate number.


OP... the dark spot was likely the start of or visible evidence of organ failure.

As for parasites, there are many possibilites. Many are self-limiting in the wild, as geckos are not regularly exposed to their own (infected) feces. In captivity, with constant re-infection due to the small quarters, a gecko can over time build up a huge and detrimental load of parasites.

favrielle said:

The pet store cricket scenario is extremely unlikely. And I'm not sure where you got your infection rate number.

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I agree that the pet store cricket scenario is unlikely, atleast I hope so. Especially since most pet stores would be more likely to leave crickets in a tank than to remove the uneaten crickets. However, a human being (being "frugal" in our nature) may think it is "wasted money" to throw away uneaten crickets. So ifff a petstore employee were to remove excess crickets from their tanks, hopefully they know better than to keep/resell the crickets.

tb144050 said:

Crypto is so resilient, it can survive on dry surface for "long periods of time" (months if I remember right). It is always possible to get Crypto from crickets that you got at a petstore (or similar chain of events).

a) Petstore employees handles a Leo with crypto, then handles cricket sales =0.00001% chance; or

b) Petstore employees feed the Leo's....then remove uneaten crickets (which have been eating crypto-infected-poop) and puts them back into the cricket-selling-bin = a horrible practice, but probably atleast 90% infectious if done.

Click to expand...

These probabilities are completely manifested based on no data....just completely created to show:
a) the extremely low probability of scenario A
b) the extremely high spread of Crypto through scenario B, "recycled crickets" ...
(not the probability that this actually happens in pet stores. Simply "if" this happened, you would probably expect a HIGH rate of Crypto-spread).
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I hope this clears up any misinterpretations of what I stated (or why).

tb144050 said:

I agree that the pet store cricket scenario is unlikely, atleast I hope so. Especially since most pet stores would be more likely to leave crickets in a tank than to remove the uneaten crickets. However, a human being (being "frugal" in our nature) may think it is "wasted money" to throw away uneaten crickets. So ifff a petstore employee were to remove excess crickets from their tanks, hopefully they know better than to keep/resell the crickets.

Click to expand...

I'm going to guess most pet store employees have other things to do besides chasing down uneaten crickets, considering the number of dead ones I see in an average enclosure at most pet stores. I could be wrong, but I don't see it being a common thing simply because it takes time. An employer isn't likely to encourage/condone that sort of time-intensive activity to save a few cents on crickets. Not to mention, at least at most of the big box -Co and -Smart stores I've been to, the bulk feeder bin isn't anywhere near the reptile enclosures, which would make the suggested activity even more of a hassle.

On the other hand, "recycling" feeders in a private collection that happens to include an infected animal is a recipe for disaster... a cricket/roach/whatever consuming or walking through infected feces and thereafter being introduced to another animal's enclosure means a high risk of infection. As I understand it, "back in the day" there were breeders who lost whole collections to this. And even if Crypto isn't an issue, other parasites are spread the same way. Not worth the risk!

tb144050 said:

IThese probabilities are completely manifested based on no data....just completely created to show:
a) the extremely low probability of scenario A
b) the extremely high spread of Crypto through scenario B, "recycled crickets" ...
(not the probability that this actually happens in pet stores. Simply "if" this happened, you would probably expect a HIGH rate of Crypto-spread).
----------------------

I hope this clears up any misinterpretations of what I stated (or why).

Click to expand...

It clears up why you said it.

My concern is that someone new with a sick gecko will casually skim this (and geckoforums.net is pretty popular, so I know someone will) and freak out because "my gecko is sick and must have Crypto because I feed it petstore crickets!" There is SO much misinformation and outdated information out there about the disease, that adding to it just makes the job of educating people harder. And I should know... I had a crash course in everything Crypto in the last several months. Sifting the hearsay and inaccuracies from the real information was a nightmare!

Crickets from the local big-box store are one of the last possible vectors you'd want to consider if you're talking about Crypto... first you should look at -- other animals in direct contact (whether they're showing symptoms or not, as Crypto infection can be sub-clinical until a triggering event causes that to change), -- new animals brought into the house whether in direct contact or not, and -- possible transmission from other sources, such as attending a show or a pet store, holding an infected animal, and then not washing your hands before handling your animal after returning home.

Good call! I will edit to post to add a *disclaimer note* that the statistics are indeed fabricated (but possible) to express the high risk of "recycling crickets."

favrielle said:

On the other hand, "recycling" feeders in a private collection that happens to include an infected animal is a recipe for disaster... a cricket/roach/whatever consuming or walking through infected feces and thereafter being introduced to another animal's enclosure means a high risk of infection. As I understand it, "back in the day" there were breeders who lost whole collections to this. And even if Crypto isn't an issue, other parasites are spread the same way. Not worth the risk!

Click to expand...

I understand the risk of recycling feeders in the case of quarantined reptiles, however I can't see the relevance in an established collection. If we are going to breed those geckos this season they will already have plenty of contact with each other and chances for infection. Will not recycling do any honest difference there?