HELP should I be worried!

[tb144050]

I understand the risk of recycling feeders in the case of quarantined reptiles, however I can't see the relevance in an established collection. If we are going to breed those geckos this season they will already have plenty of contact with each other and chances for infection. Will not recycling do any honest difference there?

Im not sure what I am misunderstanding, and what I think I actually DO understand (I'm sleepy from staying up all night this week) doesn't sound good. So I guess I will start by trying to get some clarity:

1) by "established collection", do you mean 1 large tank of geckos...or...all geckos in the building, housed separately?

2) Do you intend to leave the male housed with the female partner?

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here are my thoughts:

1) recycling feeders, especially crickets, is a BAD idea...even at home...even to be re-used in the same tank (if there is more than 1 gecko in the tank).

--a) recycling crickets from 1 tank, and then using them in another tank is the FASTEST way to lose your entire collection of geckos to a single case of illness/parasite.

--b) proper feeding of crickets ("feed what they eat in 15minutes & discard the leftovers") and general husbandry will drastically reduce the risk of spreading parasites....even among cagemates.

--c) If you are following the above-mentioned feeding and husbandry practices, there is a higher probability that the other cagemates will not get the illnesses/parasites that are known to be spread through poop-eating crickets. So if you practice safe feeding/husbandry....1 gecko gets sick, you immediately quarantine/observe/test it. If he is sick, quarantine the cagemates and have them tested to see if they caught it.

2) There are a couple of different breeding methods (one is to leave the male living with the females; the other is to "stage the mating" and then separate them). If you are "staging the mating" for 5minutes and then separating them, there is *EDIT* less risk of transfering the *EDIT* undetected nasty parasites mentioned above. So I would again, not recommend recycling crickets from female tank to male tank (or vice versa), because of the high probably that mating them does NOT mean that they infected them with a parasite.

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We have gotten just a tiny bit off-track from your post. This is all good information to know and to practice in your husbandry, but I am curious how your situation is going.

Have you made any new observations about your geckos or have you taken in fecals to start a series of parasite tests?

 

[favrielle]

I understand the risk of recycling feeders in the case of quarantined reptiles, however I can't see the relevance in an established collection. If we are going to breed those geckos this season they will already have plenty of contact with each other and chances for infection. Will not recycling do any honest difference there?

Basically, it's just good practice not to. Crypto isn't the only thing out there. There are many other parasites that can be transmitted by feeders and/or careless husbandry. Heck, even just a bad case of pinworms can be a huge problem for a gecko that's also going through the rigors/stresses of breeding. And at least one resource (Understanding Reptile Parasites by Dr. Roger Klingenberg) suggests that a heavy parasite load can and will affect fertility. Why increase your chances of a problem when you don't need to?

 

[Josh P.]

Basically, it's just good practice not to. Crypto isn't the only thing out there. There are many other parasites that can be transmitted by feeders and/or careless husbandry. Heck, even just a bad case of pinworms can be a huge problem for a gecko that's also going through the rigors/stresses of breeding. And at least one resource (Understanding Reptile Parasites by Dr. Roger Klingenberg) suggests that a heavy parasite load can and will affect fertility. Why increase your chances of a problem when you don't need to?

I know what you mean just saying that breeders already have contact with each other so if there is a parasite it might already be spread with or without recycling feeders. This may be worse in the case of crickets but for example mealworms offered on a dish have the risk of infection greatly minimized as they don't even have contact with stools, fluids and other vectors.

 

[Josh P.]

Im not sure what I am misunderstanding, and what I think I actually DO understand (I'm sleepy from staying up all night this week) doesn't sound good. So I guess I will start by trying to get some clarity:

1) by "established collection", do you mean 1 large tank of geckos...or...all geckos in the building, housed separately?

An established collection is any established collection. Husbandry techniques, rack system housing, harem breeding or colony maintenance is a personal choice, each defended by different reputable breeders. An established collection refers to every gecko you own; it doesn't matter if they live in your house, your mother's or a building a few kilometers down the road.

2) There are a couple of different breeding methods (one is to leave the male living with the females; the other is to "stage the mating" and then separate them). If you are "staging the mating" for 5minutes and then separating them, there is verrry minimal risk of transfering the nasty parasites mentioned above. So I would again, not recommend recycling crickets from female tank to male tank (or vice versa), because of the high probably that mating them does NOT mean that they infected them with a parasite.

If you think that allowing geckos to breed and maintain such intimate contact with each other, no matter how controlled and limited in time it may be, represents "very minimal risk of transferring nasty parasites" and a "high probability that mating does not infect them with a parasite" then you are wrong. Breeding can be a major vector of infection to most reptile species. Truth is, if you suspect any reptile to be infected with a parasite it shouldn't even be breeding to begin with. It should be quarantined, screened, tested and then medicated with the appropriate treatment under an appropriate dosage based on weight and the severity of the parasite involved. Unlike what you said, which definitely is not good advice for new gecko owners and breeders, when breeding infected leopard geckos there is a high risk of infection and every gecko should be quarantined immediately and NOT bred.

 

[favrielle]

I know what you mean just saying that breeders already have contact with each other so if there is a parasite it might already be spread with or without recycling feeders. This may be worse in the case of crickets but for example mealworms offered on a dish have the risk of infection greatly minimized as they don't even have contact with stools, fluids and other vectors.

True. Unless you have a dish-pooper or two like I do. But in general, yes, the more mobile feeders (crickets, roaches) would be a higher transmission risk if you are recycling feeders.

 

[tb144050]

I guess it is my lack of sleep that may be causing me to post messages that miss a few key words in my posts this week...or just otherwise being misunderstood. After a nice 3hour nap and reading your reply when I woke up, I now understand your "recycle feeders in an established collection" question more clearly than I did

An established collection is any established collection. Husbandry techniques, rack system housing, harem breeding or colony maintenance is a personal choice, each defended by different reputable breeders. An established collection refers to every gecko you own; it doesn't matter if they live in your house, your mother's or a building a few kilometers down the road.
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^^ I understand all this. I was asking for clarity on the "established collection" you have. (single tank, multiple tank, and/or racks). This info would have greatly helped me to tailor my replies to your situation.

If you think that allowing geckos to breed and maintain such intimate contact with each other, no matter how controlled and limited in time it may be, represents "very minimal risk of transferring nasty parasites" and a "high probability that mating does not infect them with a parasite" then you are wrong. Breeding can be a major vector of infection to most reptile species. Truth is, if you suspect any reptile to be infected with a parasite it shouldn't even be breeding to begin with. It should be quarantined, screened, tested and then medicated with the appropriate treatment under an appropriate dosage based on weight and the severity of the parasite involved. Unlike what you said, which definitely is not good advice for new gecko owners and breeders, when breeding infected leopard geckos there is a high risk of infection and every gecko should be quarantined immediately and NOT bred.

^^I am a TOP-ADVOCATOR for proper quarantine, especially since my first Leo's ever, who were housed together, all passed from Crypto. I never said "it is OK to breed a sick/infected Leo." I sincerely HOPE that NO ONE is out there breeding sick/infected Leo's. However, one terrible thing about illness/parasites is that it may or may not be widespread by the time that the first symptoms show up.

This is why I was asking, above, what type of housing you have your "established collection" in. This is also why I wrote such a LONG reply explaining how "recycling feeders" among separate enclosures has a MUCH HIGHER rate of transfer than the actual act of "stage breeding" 2 apparently-healthy Leo's......or I can attempt to state it even more simply:

Two apparently-healthy Leo's are "far less likely" to transfer UNKNOWN parasite/illness....when compared to .....Two geckos, breeding or not, that are living in the same enclosure."

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I wrote such a LONG response (which you quoted here) PROMOTING quarantine and proper husbandry. I wrote that response to convince readers NOT to recycle feeders among their APPARENTLY-health "established colony." Again, I NEVER said "it is ok to breed geckos with illness/parasite." I was merely attempting to state the minimal risk of transfer during a short "staged" mating.

If you have taken offense or misunderstand ANY of my previous posts, I apologize.
If you take offense or misunderstand ANY of statements in this response, I apologize.

I sincerely hope that I, or any other member, can convince you NOT to recycle feeders among an APPARENTLY-healthy "established colony" of any type.

NOTE: In this post, "APPARENTLY-healthy" refers to the fact that a Leo can have illness/parasites that do not currently exhibit symptoms.

Goodbye & Good Luck.

 

[Josh P.]

No offense taken at all, no need to apologize. All is fine. Also let me add that I wasn't saying that I recycle feeders, I was just making a case that with some feeders such as mealworms it isn't that much of a big deal when you're doing it in a healthy and well established collection that is also being bred. Of course there are a lot of variables to take into consideration and that all comes with experience, research and knowledge.

Take care.

 

[adamday7]

Sorry for the delay, but I have news.

I recently took one of my remaining geckos to the vets (Chinehouse in Sileby, near Leicester, UK) after the appearance of the same green spot, along with a stool sample for testing.

The green spot is the gecko' gall bladder, that becomes more noticeable when the gecko is eating less.
This gecko was eating less because its ovaries were enlarged because it was on its 'cycle', which I didn't even realise happened in geckos!

The vet thoroughly examined the gecko, aware of the background, and said there was nothing to worry about.

This is the message I received later on regarding the sample:
"The stool sample was clear - a few oxyurid worm eggs but at this level would be considered normal and no need to treat at this stage. I would recommend a repeat sample in 6-12 months as the worms can build up numbers over time."

 

[adamday7]

Thanks to ALL who commented on this thread, a very interesting and complex case!!

 

[indyana]

That's interesting information on the gall bladder. Glad she's got a clean bill of health.