New Owner With a Sickie

About your leo:
- Sex - Was told female by old owner
- Age & Weight - Not sure on age, about4-5", not sure on weight but will check vet record tomorrow
- How long have you owned your leo - ~1 week
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend) - Not sure where originally from, got from old owner

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo - multiple times a day
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now. - is more active now, which is good I think, not really eating
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. - has apparently always been a bad shedder, has had eye infection "for some time", bad eater
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal) - incredibly small, dark, solid (negative fecal last week)
- When was the last time he/she went - yesterday
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on - not sure how long it's been going on. Eye infection, not eating

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size - 10 gallon aquarium with wire top
- Type (ex. glass tank) - glass aquarium (may be acrylic, not sure)
- Type of substrate - paper towel
- Hides, how many, what kind - 2 right now; a fake hanging plant on the cool side and a fake rock formation/platform. Adding moist hide tomorrow.

B) Heating
- Heat source - just got UTH today, was using a light
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side) - not sure on cool side, hot side is ~92
- Method of regulating heat source - none just yet, getting something soon
- What are you using to measure your temps- probe on hot side
- Do you have any lights (describe) - I have a red light but not using anymore
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females)- none
- Describe health, or previous problems - n/a

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much) - was eating a/d at the vet, eats crickets if I take the legs off, offering wax worms tonight
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect) - left in dish, attempting hand feeding
B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands) - just got today, calcium w/d3, calcium w/o d3
- What are you gut loading food with - have not yet, just bought wax worms today and didn't know about gut loading when got crickets


Long story short, I was not planning on getting a new pet but this poor little girl was basically handed over to me. She was not eating, has a bad eye infection, is currently blind and will most likely not regain her vision.

She was at the vet for two days where they started soaking her twice a day after a bad shed, she had skin stuck to her head, over her eyes, around her mouth and toes. They were able to remove all the dead skin and get her to eat some a/d. She was prescribed an eye ointment for the infection and I am to put saline in as well (before the ointment). She has been tolerating everything pretty well, I realize this much be a huge amount of stress for her but she is very sweet. I think she is starting to feel better, she is more active and is starting to resist the soakings and eye care.

I have a few questions about her eyes, one appears sunken and the other appears a bit buldgy, I will post photos at the end, but I was wondering if either is normal. One was completely closed and just opened today (~5 days). Some pus came out, but I flushed it and put the ointment in. The one that is open has a bit of "crust" on the actual eye, I think the saline has been helping to loosen it but it hasn't come off yet. I'm wondering if it might be medication that had dried because of the overhead lights and high air temperature (it was ~92 with 20% humidity). That eye seems to be changing to a more pale green from neon a few days ago - is this good? The other is very pale green (the one that opened today).

If she is blind after recovery, what is her quality of life going to be like? First and foremost, I want her to be happy and healthy. Will she still be able to "hunt" her food or will I have to hand feed her? It's not something that I mind doing, just wondering.

How does her tail look? Like I said, this is my first reptile. Apparently it used to be twice the size, but I don't know how long it took to go down to the size it is now or if it was actually twice the size. How long can she go without food?

She isn't eating much, so far has only had 2 crickets in since Saturday. Should I get some a/d? A friend suggested I get Carnivore Care, I can order it tomorrow and it will be in on Tuesday - which option would be better? I'm going to offer her some waxworms tonight to see if she'll eat them.

Any thing I need to change right now? I know that I need to gut load her food now and dust it with vitamins, and leave a bottle cap of calcium without d3 in her tank. This will be started tomorrow. I also realize that she needs a moist hide, that will also be coming tomorrow. Will adding the extra hide stress her out more? So far she has adapted really well to everything (new owner, living at the vet for a few days, moving into new tank at home, soakings etc).

Aww poor baby. Its nice to see that you are taking her on.
are you going to keep her and give her a forever home?
If she did end up being 100% blind the quality of life is still good (providing that all heals well and that theres no persisting infection). you would have to hand feed her though more than likely.

you could try making a bug slurry to pipette to her although her tail look really good in the top pic. so she just might not be eating because shes not hungry, i would suggest weighing her every few day to assess her weight.

you should also be dusting her food with calcium + D3 as well as having the plain calcium in the tanks.

Her eyes look like she has retained shed in them. keep up with the eye ointment, with any luck the eye caps will soften and eventually come out. I have seen some people using Lacrilube‎ eye ointment to help with eye caps.

Thanks for the info! I did forget to put that I have been dusting her food with calcium + D3. She's out a bit more today, seems to be liking it more without the lamp.

If her tail looks good, I'll hold off on the force feeding for now. I don't want to stress her more than I have to. I will dig out my kitchen scale so that I can weigh her often. I did order some Carnivore Care to make for her if I do need to, it'll be good to have on hand anyways.

I am 99% sure that we will be keeping her once she is all healed. My boyfriend isn't crazy about the idea, he's a bit afraid of reptiles, but he seems to be coming along. If we don't end up keeping her permanently, we will be giving her to a friend of ours that has experience with reptiles but I would want to make sure she's nice and healthy before we do that so it wouldn't be any time soon.

One more question - would it help if I raised the humidity in the tank a bit to help with her eyes? I don't want her to get a respiratory infection as well, but even without the light on her eyes are not staying moist. Or, do I not want the cap soft? I am adding the moist hide today, would that provide her with enough humidity?

Quick update - I just gave her her bath and was doing her eye routine when I noticed that the crusty section was very loose. A couple of good flushing and it came off! I took a picture of it. It was somewhat soft and the stuff under looked like it was floating. I flushed it a bit more but nothing else came out, so I put her ointment in and put her back.



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Nice to see some pictures! Her weight is a lot better than I was picturing, so that's a point on her side. The most important thing now is definitely her eye treatments. With a tail like that, you don't need to worry as much if she's not hungry for a bit. I'd count two crickets so far as a victory!

when you make a slurry its not so much force feeding as you would just put small drops on her lips to lick off. but as already said she seem quite healthy despite the eye problems.
I wouldn't increase the humidity as you already said there is a risk of respiratory problems.
its good to see the caps are coming out gradually. keep up the treatments and hopefully all will come out and shell be okay. with any luck there wont be any lasting damage to the eyes.

Sorry, I didn't mean force feed her literally, I should have worded it better but I've been extremely tired lately. She had a good bowel movement either yesterday or today - not sure which because I just found out where she prefers to go and it's hidden, so not exactly easy to see through the tank unless you're looking in from one specific direction. She did not eat yesterday or overnight, but I'm not too too worried about it just yet. She seems to be maintaining her weight. I did weigh her at home but now I'm at work and can't remember exactly what it was.

Her eye flush last night went well but was a bit concerning. I was flushing it and got some more infected goop out. It tends to separate and start to come out of her eye, which is when I gently get it with my finger nails (similar to tweezers but the tweezers would just take little tiny pieces of it). So I got quite a bit more out last night, but not a big chunk like earlier. When no more would come out with the flushing, I put a q-tip near the corner of her eye to draw out the excess moisture so I could see it better. It looks very fibrous and deep, I'm starting to see a bit of dark something underneath but I don't know if it's her eye or the back of the socket and the infected goop/fibrous stuff is her eye. She does not react at all when I'm removing the "stuff", she stays very calm and her mouth is closed, no licking at anything either. She does not even attempt to move.

I also appears that she is getting ready to shed (getting dull/gray on the top of her head), which I'm guessing is either going to make things a bit better or worse. Apparently she is a terrible shedder so I'm trying to watch her like a hawk to make it go as smoothly as possible.

On the plus side of everything the swelling in the one eye has significantly decreased after the big goop/cap came out yesterday. I had thought it was the "good" eye, but I'm thinking the one that was closed is actually in better condition. She's very much resenting her soakings now so I was thinking of putting her in a container with a tiny bit of water and warm paper towels under, then putting the lid on slightly so she can still breath but also get the effects of the soaking/humidity to help with her shed. Is this a bad idea? I'm really worried about her getting a respiratory infection now. The humidity in her tank last night was ~40% and it's been raining all night/day here so far so I'm expecting it to be a bit higher when I get home.

I also searched around our (and our neighbours') recycling last night and couldn't find anything to make a humid hide out of - we use mostly glass at our place, the only plastic things I could find were individual yogurt cups which are way too small. I was wondering if I'd be able to use a glass canning jar without a lid, there are no sharp edges and they are slightly square so it won't roll around. They're also extremely easy to clean and sterilize, we can a lot of food, so we have a ton of them already. If I used a wide mouth one, there wouldn't be as much of a gap between the floor and entrance. Good idea? Bad? I've got to get on this ASAP since she is going to be shedding very soon. If it's a bad idea I can run to the store today and pick up some sort of small container.

I will update with more pictures tonight and will try to take one of her eye when it's a bit dryer so you can see what I talking about in terms of it being fibrous.

Sorry, one more thing. Is the slurry better than the Carnivore Care?

Info on Carnivore Care:
Carnivore Care is a premium recovery food which can be given to carnivores with poor nutritional status resulting from illness or surgery. This specially formulated product contains beneficial omega fatty acids and easily digestible proteins to support nutrient absorption and optimize energy levels.

Analytical Constituents: Protein 45%, Fat Conten 32%, Crude Fibre 1.5%, Inorganic Matter 8%, Omega 6 Fatty Acid 7.6%, Calcium 1.7%, Phosphorus 1.2%, Omega 3 Fatty Acid 1%

Additives per kg: Vitamin A 25,000 IU, Vitamin D3 405 IU, Taurine 1,650mg, Vitamin E 175mg, Vitamin C 400mg, L-Carnitine 510mg, E2 (Iodine) 0.75mg, Copper 15mg, Manganese 30mg, Zinc 70mg

Composition: Dried whole egg, poultry meal, fish oil, tricalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, hydrolyzed yeast

Update after last night's cleaning...

I got a lot more crud out. A lot. It was mostly hard and appeared to be wrapped around her eye (?) Or something. I'm honestly not sure if there's even an eye in there but I didn't want to shine any bright lights incase there was. She was very good through the whole thing and it all came out fairly easily with flushing.

It's hard to tell in the photo, but this chunk is nearly twice the size of the one from the other day.


After flushing and removing the crud.








There was no open mouth or any of that, she just stayed still and occasionally licked her eyes - something I have not seen her do before.

They appeared to be closed all night and this morning but I expected that with everything we did last night. I also basically packed the "holes" with the antibiotic ointment, so they may be crusted shut a bit. She did manage to catch 1 small cricket (with legs attached!). She now has a humid hide as well and seems to like it.

I found out some more info on her too, she's at least 7 years old. She used to be very aggressive but allowed holding for the last few months. She has needed help shedding for the last few years. She would also not eat anything other than wax worms before so I'm going to try to not give those to her at all now. Her eyes used to be normal but started sinking back awhile ago, she could see and eyes appeared clear with no infection/skin/irritation until more recently. She may or may not have been housed with with a male (she better not be gravid!).

Any ideas on the eyes? Can they go back so far that I may not be able to see them? The one that I had been calling the good eye is the one that I can't see anything in. The other may have an eye but I was already pushing my luck with the intense cleaning yesterday and didn't want to stress her even more. It was also cleaning day and with adding the warm hide I had to rearrange everything.

She has a smaller water dish now (cat can cover), she seems to like to walk through it and knock it over now which is raising the humidity in her tank to ~50%. Given that I'm pretty sure she's close to shedding, is this ok? I have oral antibiotics if I need to use them (baytril).

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I'd get one that she can't knock over, just to keep the cage from getting flooded all the time. I'm sure 50% humidity won't hurt her in the short term, but it's probably not great all the time.

I don't have a lot of experience with treating eye infections, so I'll leave those questions to someone else. Really not certain if those are shed skin caps still in there or what...

She just knocked it over the first day, it's been fine since. I might just put a small piece of medical tape underneath it to help hold it in place. It's been so rainy that the humidity in our house has been high as well, I don't want to turn the light on to help get rid of the humidity because it tends to dry out her eyes more and makes the medication crust her eyes close pretty quickly. She's getting ready to shed, has looked pretty dull the past 2 days and is on track from what her old owner told me. She has her humid hide but doesn't use it much, I figured the higher humidity in the tank for a few days when she's preparing the shed will be ok for her, especially since she is a terrible shedder. We started her on oral baytril yesterday at a low dose incase the infection had spread further than her eyes, so it should cover for any respiratory problems she may develop with the higher humidity over the next couple of days. After she sheds I will make more of an effort to get the humidity down.

Now, onto her eyes! Last night's flush produced another large chunk of pus from the left eye (the one that has been giving me big chunks before). Again, it was about the size of her actual eye. These things are absolutely huge, I can't even imagine how painful they must have been for her. I also got a smaller piece out of the right eye that was still rather large in size. This one appeared to have been wrapped around the eye as well. I decided to leave the eyes flushed for a few hours to give her some time to see if the eyes were crusting shut from the medication and if she would be more interested in food. She kept them open for a little bit, then seemed to take a bit of a nap. After that they were crusted shut again so I did another flush, a very small piece of pus came out of the right eye, and put her meds in. She ate the cricket legs that I had picked off and one of the smaller crickets.

Now that it appears that most of the infection is out of her eye sockets, it appears that her eyes are starting to recover. There still appears to be a bit of film over them but I think I can see some of her eye under it. After the first flush last night she appeared to be darting them back and forth and somewhat followed my finger on the left side but ignored it on the right. Whether she was actually following it or not, I don't know, but regardless it seems like an improvement.

Incase anyone is interested, here's what I have been doing:
Flushing eyes with sterile saline 2-3x day (morning, noon if I can, and evening) - the morning flushes are very quick as I am also getting ready for work. I usually go downstairs and get her, soak her for 10 mins while I'm getting dressed and let the dogs out, the do her eyes and go to work. In the evening I can devote much more time to it so it's more thorough.
Antibiotic eye ointment 2x day (morning and evening - I try to wait 10-15 minutes post flush)
Oral baytril 1x day (evening, can increase to 2x day if needed)

When I say that I'm getting large chunks of stuff out of her eye I just wanted to clarify that I am not digging around in there or anything like that. When I flush, it loosens up or separates the pus from the skin/eye/whatever it's attached to, so it just floats there and usually sticks out very slightly from the actual eye. I have been able to grasp these small pieces that are actually sticking out and lightly pull, there is no resistance and it has just been sliding right out. I make sure to do it very slowly and watch her as I'm doing it to make sure she doesn't seem to be in pain or discomfort. After the large pieces have been removed, I've been flushing it well again until nothing else is coming out. I'm really hoping that she will shed very shortly and that will remove the film that I'm seeing over the eye if it's not removed with the flushes. If another large piece of pus comes out again tonight I'm considering having it cultured to make sure that the medication we're using on her eyes will cover the bacteria that are in there. I did wonder at first if it was dried medication but it sometimes has a bit of a bad odour to it and it's always much more than the thin layer that I've been putting in.

So that's our update for now. I'll update more either tomorrow or after her flush tonight.

I wonder if those are layers of old shed skin coming out of her eyes? This is really interesting to follow her progress. I think the best indication here is that she's still eating. Good luck with her continued care, and I look forward to reading all the updates.

Its a good sign that shes eating. i would also cover the new sweat jar with paper or something to make it a safe darker area to retreat to, it will help her feel less exposed, securing it down with tape or something would also be a good idea so it doesn't squash her or her tail.

The stuff coming out looks and sound like a build up of skin and debris that have got into her eye and caused an infection. keep up the once daily washes/ flushings and meds, your doing a good job. i should think there is an eye ball under there somewhere lol and hopefully soon the irritation and swelling will reduce enough for her to feel comfortable opening it.

My boys eye is much better but he does relapse occasionally and i have to bath his eye too.

Once shes ready to shed i would keep an eye and if you think shes going to struggle, pop her in a sandwich box with warm wet paper towels with the lid on for a but to make sure the skin is sot and easy for her to remove. if she does have any left you can just try rolling the skin off with your fingers if she doesn't mind you holding her. pay special attention to her toes and try to make sure the head comes off in one piece to try and avoid any more stuff getting in her eyes.

indyana said:

I wonder if those are layers of old shed skin coming out of her eyes? This is really interesting to follow her progress. I think the best indication here is that she's still eating. Good luck with her continued care, and I look forward to reading all the updates.

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I'm starting to wonder that too. Her previous owner had said that she had been helping her remove the shed for 6 years. I'm also not sure what type of substrate she was using, there didn't appear to be any sand or anything on her when I first got her but that doesn't mean that she wasn't on it. Nothing that's come out of her eye has felt gritty which is a plus.

sausage said:

Its a good sign that shes eating. i would also cover the new sweat jar with paper or something to make it a safe darker area to retreat to, it will help her feel less exposed, securing it down with tape or something would also be a good idea so it doesn't squash her or her tail.

The stuff coming out looks and sound like a build up of skin and debris that have got into her eye and caused an infection. keep up the once daily washes/ flushings and meds, your doing a good job. i should think there is an eye ball under there somewhere lol and hopefully soon the irritation and swelling will reduce enough for her to feel comfortable opening it.

My boys eye is much better but he does relapse occasionally and i have to bath his eye too.

Once shes ready to shed i would keep an eye and if you think shes going to struggle, pop her in a sandwich box with warm wet paper towels with the lid on for a but to make sure the skin is sot and easy for her to remove. if she does have any left you can just try rolling the skin off with your fingers if she doesn't mind you holding her. pay special attention to her toes and try to make sure the head comes off in one piece to try and avoid any more stuff getting in her eyes.

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I ended up going and getting a small plastic container and cutting an entrance out for her. It's upside down so the lid is acting as the floor, there is a layer of paper towels there about 4 sheets thick, the plastic is clear though so I will make sure to cover it with something tonight and see if she likes it a bit more then.

Thanks for the tips with her shedding. I had her out for some cuddle time last night, I don't want her to associate me taking her out with flushing her eye constantly, lol. She's getting more and more dull but hasn't started to shed just yet. It's still raining nearly constantly here, the humidity in her tank last night was ~45% so it has dropped a bit.

Now for the flush last night.... IT WAS CLEAR! A few very small pieces of debris came out but there weren't any huge chunks, her eyes seemed to come out a bit more and she looked happy. She even started to lick her eyes, which she hasn't done much since I got her. Her eyes did crust over by the time I took her out for cuddles, but I used a damp qtip and they opened fairly easily. She didn't eat anything last night that I saw but may have had some cricket legs.

I will try to get a couple pictures of her tonight to update but I'm really happy with her progress!

Yesterday's updates... my cat's ashes came back so I was kind of blah feeling all day, the little gecko's constant care has been keeping my mind off losing the cat, so it all kind of hit me when I picked up the ashes.

Eye flush went well, nothing came out. They crusted over after about an hour but she did manage to get one back open.

I also had her out for cuddles (cuddles = her sitting on my knee or collarbone while I watch TV). I try to take her out regularly so she doesn't just associate handling with bad things. She was really enjoying the rubbing on her head, back and chin. I'd stop and she'd push her little head back to my hand. She looked quite content. Her appetite has been down, in my opinion. She would only eat 1-2 cricket every few day and only if I picked the legs off. I decided to grab some crickets and see if she would eat them. I would hold one to her face, she'd lick it a bit but didn't seem to know what to do with it. Then she opened her mouth, so I put the back leg of the one I was holding in slightly. That's what she wanted! She chomped that cricket down quickly, then another. She wasn't interested in a third, so we cuddled a bit more and I put her back to digest. She went straight to the humid hide. I hadn't covered it yet but she seems to be liking it as is so I'll leave it for now.

It also finally stopped raining here, the humidity in her tank has dropped back down to 40-45%.

Today was tank cleaning day again (I do it every 2-3 days), she was in her humid hide when I went to do it so I just sealed up the entrance for the 5 minutes it takes me to clean. When I was done, I went to take her out so I could clean the humid hide and noticed that she had started to shed - yay! It was all bubbled up around her neck and there was a hole in the shed between her front left leg and neck. Since I had been told that she was a bad shedder I decided to help her out right away. I grabbed the edge of the shed and it all pretty much slid right off. Three of her legs/toes came off very easily - the shed looked like little gecko gloves. I'm pretty sure it all came off the other leg with parts of the body shed, but I will continue to monitor her toes just in case. Her head was a different story, a bit tougher but still came off fairly easily. I was extremely careful around her eyes and I'm pretty sure it all came off. There is still a little bit around her mouth that I'm going to watch, she was starting to get fidgety around that point. I put her back in, cleaned out the humid hide and she went right back in.

She also pooped! I wasn't sure how long it takes them to digest their food, she hadn't gone in about 2-3 days so I was starting to get a bit concerned, especially because I've been waiting for it so I could have another fecal test done (first one was negative). I should know the results of it later this evening.

She is much brighter in colour now and is looking much healthier. She seems to be happier too, she's much more active than she was when I first got her. All in all I think she's doing much better and will make a good recovery. I think it's going to take a couple of sheds for her eyes to go back to normal, but they are looking much better after this one.

Just a note, reptiles often have changes in appetite and defecation around shedding time, so don't get too worried about minor variations when you see that she's getting ready to shed.

indyana said:

Just a note, reptiles often have changes in appetite and defecation around shedding time, so don't get too worried about minor variations when you see that she's getting ready to shed.

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Thanks, I just worry because I've had her for almost two weeks now and she's barely ate anything. At the vet she had a tiny little bit of a/d twice and since she's been home she's had maybe 5 crickets. She was eating waxworms at her old home but went off those "quite some time ago" and apparently lost a lot of weight. I'm starting to get better about not fussing over her so much since she's starting to feel better. I figured since she readily ate the crickets that I hand fed her, she was hungry. This is the second time she's pooped at home, she pooped once at the vet.

Just another update, most likely my final one (with the exception of some pictures I will post tonight).

Her eye flushes have been going very well, she is keeping her eyes open for a few hours after the flushes, then she has a nap and they get stuck shut. Medication was done as of yesterday, so now I'm just keeping and eye (haha, good pun?) on it. I'm going down to flushing the eye once a day for a few days, then I'll do every other day for a couple more days. If she's keeping them open at that point then all is well, if not, she'll be due to shed around there and we'll see if that doesn't help resolve it. She was moved to a new enclosure yesterday, she seems to prefer it to the old one. It's a 20 gallon long Critter Cage, I think I got a good deal on it ($50 brand new). She also got a new sister, who is obviously in a different enclosure. She's a blizzard possibly het tremper I believe, she's very cute. I'll post about her tonight when I get home from work and post photos of this little girl's eyes.

Have been following the progress of this little girl, so happy to hear that all the eye flushing has really helped her improve. I'm sure it will be a while until she can keep her eyes open for really prolonged times, being able to see again takes some getting used to!

so glad to hear that shes on the mend and is doing much better. keep up the good work, shes responding really well but it will take time to heal fully. looking forward to some new pics.