Ovulating, unfertilized eggs, or gravid eggs??

tb144050 · Mar 7, 2014

Ruby has been ovulating for about a month now, but I was waiting for her to get her weight up to par. She mated with Max about 4 days ago.

I am 99% sure that no one can tell if eggs are "fertilized or not", but I wanted to post a couple of pics and get some input.

1) I am really wanting to know if she is actually forming eggs now and if she looks like she is beyond the point of "reabsorbing them"??

2) and if she is definitely forming eggs now, can you tell how "far along" they are based on their size in the pics below? I am going out of town this weekend, from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon....I am hoping she won't lay them until I get back, so I can get them in my incubator in hopes of my first good eggs ever..

This is her first year so they might be duds for her first clutch anyway, but I can hope

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Dinosaur! · Mar 7, 2014

it definately looks like your girl is gravid! scince the eggs are still a little small, i would re-introduce her to Max, just to make sure he did his "job"

I think that you will be perfectly fine to be out this weekend. When a gecko is about to lay eggs (like 3-5 days before), her organs will be pushed to the front of her belly (making her belly all dark) and you will be able to see dark red veins on the eggs (see pic that I'll put at the bottom).

your incubator looks so nice! And for some reason i am very excited to see what you hatch this year! Your girls are all stunning! keep us posted!

DrCarrotTail · Mar 7, 2014

No way to tell if they're fertile or not until they lay. Here's a couple pictures of my gravid girls that I took on Monday night. The first girl laid two obviously fertile eggs on Tuesday and the second one layed two eggs last night that look okay but don't have an obvious bullseye. My fingers are crossed for the second pair but they don't look promising. All are safe and warm in the incubator until I can say for sure!

tb144050 · Mar 7, 2014

Dinosaur! said:
it definately looks like your girl is gravid! scince the eggs are still a little small, i would re-introduce her to Max, just to make sure he did his "job"

I think that you will be perfectly fine to be out this weekend. When a gecko is about to lay eggs (like 3-5 days before), her organs will be pushed to the front of her belly (making her belly all dark) and you will be able to see dark red veins on the eggs (see pic that I'll put at the bottom).

your incubator looks so nice! And for some reason i am very excited to see what you hatch this year! Your girls are all stunning! keep us posted!

Thanks for all the input!!

1) Im relieved to know that she probably won't be laying them during the next 3 days. I have a coco-fiber (Eco-earth) lay-box/moist hide slightly over the UTH and directly under a dim overhead red lamp....haven't checked the temp in the laybox, but I guess I should..lol

2) Max did his "job" just once before she rejected him. But last night she let him do his job TWO TIMES!!

3) Thanks for the compliment on the incubator. I still have not modified any wiring from the working drink-cooler...just hate the idea of ruining a cooler..haha. And for now, I just have the "incubator wiring" run between the door insulation and the frame...haven't cut anything there yet. Also still have to wire in a fan somehow without ruining the cooler. The temps are stable (within .3F +/- of goal) but there is a gradient in different corners. I will need a fan to keep an even temp throughout the incubator if I ever fill up the whole shelf.

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So if Max didn't successfully "fertilize" her ovulations/eggs during his first visit about 6 days ago.....can the eggs (pictured in first post, taken last night) be fertilized by his visit last night? Or do the eggs have to be fertilized before they grow to that size? (I am guessing they have to be fertilized in advance or the "cells" just aren't going to be producing a baby).

edit: I forgot to mention...Ruby has been eating RAVENOUSLY since her first mating. She has packed on an extra 5grams in the last 6 days. She hunts everytime I open the cage. If I leave a few extra after she and Slinky are full, they are gone when I check again a few hours later. So I drop in a few more to "test the waters"...and Ruby will hunt/eat all over again. I am guessing this is a good sign of producing eggs, but I am hoping they will be fertile too??

DrCarrotTail · Mar 7, 2014

Most of my first time breeders lay an initial infertile clutch no matter how many times they mated or when. I think it's just a learning curve for them or maybe there's some sort of physiological reason why. I wouldn't be disappointed or think you did anything wrong if the first eggs aren't fertile. But more than two infertile clutches and I would start to wonder if one gecko has an issue.

I've only had two females lay more than one infertile clutch. One was with an older male that had a hemipene prolapse removed last year and may not be able to get the job done. The other is the little gal in that picture and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she figures it out soon! The male has bred with another female and produced fertile eggs so it's more than likely something going on with her. My fingers are crossed that her third clutch is good. She's one of my favorites!

tb144050 · Mar 7, 2014

I'm wishing us both luck!!

And yeah, I am not expecting a miracle but I wouldn't complain if the first clutch was fertile...I need a miracle to bring up my spirits (from other issues). :O

tb144050 · Mar 9, 2014

I made it back 48 hours later, and no eggs yet...

For easier comparison, here is the pic I posted on March 7th (2 days ago)....after this reposted pic, I will post today's pic (with a closeup).

Here's a new pic with a zoomed copy of the pic below it.

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Still look like some eggs are actually forming, even though probably 99% chance infertile??

I am just hoping that the clutches are starting to come..

DrCarrotTail · Mar 10, 2014

A healthy first time breeding female that lays a clutch safely is a fabulous thing in my book!! Just that little miracle - infertile or not - should lift your spirits! Your girl looks like she still has a week or so to go before laying but sometimes they work quickly and sometimes they take a bit longer. Usually if they stall for too long I may try reintroducing the male to see if their waiting because the first breeding didn't take for some reason. If their willing to let him mate again then they should be on the right track after that.

tb144050 · Mar 10, 2014

DrCarrotTail said:
A healthy first time breeding female that lays a clutch safely is a fabulous thing in my book!! Just that little miracle - infertile or not - should lift your spirits! Your girl looks like she still has a week or so to go before laying but sometimes they work quickly and sometimes they take a bit longer. Usually if they stall for too long I may try reintroducing the male to see if their waiting because the first breeding didn't take for some reason. If their willing to let him mate again then they should be on the right track after that.

She only allowed him to mate once during the first time (8 days ago, March 2nd). Then she let him mate twice within 15 minutes during the second visit, which was about 5 days later (3 days ago, March 7th).

I am hoping for an "uneventful" laying (no problems)

but I will continue to post pics maybe every other day. With this being my first time, I am trying to take pics every other day anyway, so I will have a photo-flipbook I can refer to when my other leos are progessing. Speaking of which, I have 1 other female, Rosey, that finally ended her "ovulation-based hunger strike" (about 1.5week of her barely eating) last week, and she went from 48-50g to 54g within the last week. So she mated with her boyfriend, Creeper, last night.

Creeper is named for his behavior...he is like NinJa, doesn't want to be touched/seen so he tends to creep cautiously when he thinks no one is looking. Just like NinJa, he is a very strong/tense type and continuously struggles to get free. So I work with him about once/week to slowly get him to tolerate more handling. I will post another thread with a pic of Rosey's ovulations on the night she mated for the first time.

tb144050 · Mar 10, 2014

Just posted pics of Rosie's "ovules/egg/??" in the "Show off your leo's section" because I will be updating it (hopefully daily) to create a reference page for the duration/stages of egg development.

The funny thing is that Rosie's "ovules/eggs/??" are already larger than Ruby's...and Rosie just mated 19hours ago... But I am pretty sure that is due to normal ovulation cycle...can't help that Rosie was mated while her ovules were at a larger stage.

Rosie's page below:

http://geckoforums.net/f124-show-off-your-leos/99293.htm#post790462

tb144050 · Mar 11, 2014

March 11, 2014 8pm

She is getting a bit "frumpy" and didn't really want to help take a good pic tonight. But it looks like I can start to see some of her organs getting pushed to the front. (in the very center of the abdomen, next to the egg on the left side of the pics)
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tb144050 · Mar 12, 2014

March 12, 2014, 11pm

tb144050 · Mar 13, 2014

March 13, 2014, 10PM
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I can't believe how much weight she has packed on!!

She just started to cut back on feeding last night (March 12)...so far, no appetite tonight, but I did catch her eating calcium(-d3) straight from the "dish".

If anyone is counting, today is "Day 11" since she first mated with Max on March 2. I have the incubator, deli cups, and Perlite & Vermiculite ready to go...not sure which to use yet, P or V...

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tb144050 · Mar 14, 2014

March 14, 2014
(12 days since 1st mating; 8 days since 2nd/3rd mating, same session)

She is very pale (except her nose) so she will be shedding today. Unfortunately, that means her white belly is white-er than usual....so anything inside is a little harder to see today.

As she has done for the last 5+ days, she is staying in the warm hide. This morning she ate a few crickets that came to the opening of the warmhide...she's too lazy to hunt (or atleast I haven't seen her hunt in 2days).
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tb144050 · Mar 14, 2014

Well, she just gave me a false-alarm...or maybe a first sign...?? Tonight she actually came out of her hot-spot cave. She has been hiding in there for about 5 days just laying on the hotspot and letting crickets come to her..lol

Tonight, after her fecal (TMI..sorry), she wandered toward the cool side and went in the LAYBOX!!!! She circled around in there about 3 times within 2minutes....then she left and went back to the hot-hide. (She made sure to eat a cricket that was conveniently in her path).

and

(From what I can see of her, inside the hot hide cave, she looks like she has already shed before going to the moist/Laybox.....I will check toes later, even if I have to go in and get her)

Maybe she can feel it coming? Maybe just instinctively checking for a lay area?

tb144050 · Mar 15, 2014

Day 13 (March 15, 2014, 11:50pm)

Ruby is still spending virtually all her time sleeping just inside the opening of the warmhide. Tonight, she again came out and RAN to the LAYBOX....stayed about 10 minutes (circling inside a couple times, but NOT digging), and then she RAN back to the warm hide. Havent seen her eat today at mealtime, but she may have eaten crickets that wandered into the warm hide.

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tb144050 · Mar 15, 2014

UPDATE: SHE"S DIGGING!!! (at 12:50am on March 16, 2014).

It's gonna be a late night for me....

I have my perlite + GEO cup setup with 8oz (volume, not weight) perlite and 5oz (volume, not weight) of water in the incubator just waiting on some eggs.......

Samantha12 · Mar 16, 2014

So excited for you! Be should to get pics of the eggs

good luck!

tb144050 · Mar 16, 2014

Last night.....

tb144050 · Mar 16, 2014

Day 14 (March 16, 2014, 10pm)
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Ruby's eggs now appear to have pink stripes CLEARLY visible to the eye....they are patterned like a barber's pole or a candy cane. I am going to assume that they might be her ribs.

You can see it in each of the pics in this post. I will re-post the last pic with an edited pic to CIRCLE the striped area.

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Edit: To add some input, consecutively, to the timeline.....I want to mention that she did NOT dig tonight. So far, she was digging on the night of March 15, did not dig on the night of March 16, ....and we will see if she digs on the night of March 17??)

Ovulating, unfertilized eggs, or gravid eggs??

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