Bearded dragon venom, illegal collection from wild

[bronxzoofrank]

Bearded dragons produce a mild venom, & all in the pet trade may have originated as illegally-collected animals! Bearded Dragon Species Profile

 

[morphmom]

Oh, dear. It seems this Article is in dire need of cross referencing as there are a few inconsistencies here :book2:
Kale, is not a good staple for bearded dragons at all. In fact, it's properties can impair calcium absorption. BD's need atleast 95 degrees to digest food but 120 is far too hot. 110 is really the max and that's more a baby temp. 95-105 is perfect. As far as feeding wild caught insects, please don't. It is very likely to contain parasites and or pesticides (I was actually a little upset that this article suggested that) As far as the being illegally caught, it's up for debate. There was a time when it was legal to export from Australia. And now for the venom. I find this highly suspect. They just plain don't have the teeth for it. Venomous animals have two longer fang like eye teeth. These teeth have channels or grooves in the back to allow the venom to flow down the tooth and into it's pray. BD's do not have these teeth as they are omnivores and there would be no reason to inject venom into plant matter. The saliva may have adverse effects on food items but that would be about it. I blame the internet for having so much false information. beardeddragon.org has great, sound advice if anyone would like to learn more.

 

[bronxzoofrank]

Oh, dear. It seems this Article is in dire need of cross referencing as there are a few inconsistencies here :book2:
Kale, is not a good staple for bearded dragons at all. In fact, it's properties can impair calcium absorption. BD's need at least 95 degrees to digest food but 120 is far too hot. 110 is really the max and that's more a baby temp. 95-105 is perfect. As far as feeding wild caught insects, please don't. It is very likely to contain parasites and or pesticides (I was actually a little upset that this article suggested that) As far as the being illegally caught, it's up for debate. There was a time when it was legal to export from Australia. And now for the venom. I find this highly suspect. They just plain don't have the teeth for it. Venomous animals have two longer fang like eye teeth. These teeth have channels or grooves in the back to allow the venom to flow down the tooth and into it's pray. BD's do not have these teeth as they are omnivores and there would be no reason to inject venom into plant matter. The saliva may have adverse effects on food items but that would be about it. I blame the internet for having so much false information. beardeddragon.org has great, sound advice if anyone would like to learn more.

Hello,

Thank you for your interest. Please note that my article and response is based on my experience and the research of colleagues (30+ years as a zoo-based and field herpetologist, etc., please see link ti bio in OP) and not on "the internet".

Oxalic acid in spinach and cabbage combines with Calcium to produce Calcium Oxalate, an insoluble salt that cannot be utilized by most vertebrates. Ca oxalate salts have also been implicated in kidney damage. The most thorough research has been conducted with captive mammals and people, (but see link re green iguana work). The above does not apply to any appreciable degree to Kale. Kale has long been used as part of the diet of herbivorous reptiles and mammals in major zoos; this was the practice during my career with the Bronx Zoo, and remains so. All animals were subject to autopsy upon death, and any nutrition related [problems, or suspected problems, were investigated by the pathology, veterinary and nutrition departments. Please see this article
http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...70a.pdf&code=f8cb618ef9dd3be30efbe7a12d05dd39 for further info; kale reference is several pages in. the article refers to green iguanas, but the information is, as far as we know, applicable to bearded dragons. Kale may be used as outlined in the OP.

The Venom information is now well-established and accepted by the professional herpetological community. Please be aware, for the safety's sake of readers and yourself, that your statement above, re the structure of the teeth of venomous animals, is inaccurate and incomplete as regards snakes and lizards. Please see this article for some background on the original research regarding lizard venom glands. Early evolution of the venom system in lizards and snakes : Nature. Accurate information on venom delivery in reptiles is quite easy to find, but please let me know if you need a reference.

Wild-caught invertebrates are used by many major zoos (light traps, filed plankton, termite traps, seined crayfish, snails, etc.) and private keepers (40+ years in my case), as are certain vertebrates (minnows, shiners), following the precautions mentioned in the original post. Parasite lifestyles and secondary pesticide toxicity are quite detailed subjects; an introduction may be found here http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...-as-reptile-and-amphibian-food-some-concerns/.

The export of Bearded Dragons from Australia was outlawed in 1960; they were extremely rare in US zoos prior to that time, and rarer still in private collections. Some descendants may of course survive. The vast majority in the trade today arose from animals smuggled out of Australia after the 1960 ban had been imposed.

Bearded dragons can reach appropriate temperatures when basking at 105 F or thereabouts, assuming basking time is sufficient. If a thermal gradient is provided, higher basking temperatures are also appropriate; providing a gradient may be difficult in most home enclosures, given their size, so lower temperatures may be more practical.

"Oh dear" and "die need" are not appropriate; please refrain from such in the future, thank you, Frank

 

[bronxzoofrank]

Oh, dear. It seems this Article is in dire need of cross referencing as there are a few inconsistencies here :book2:
Kale, is not a good staple for bearded dragons at all. In fact, it's properties can impair calcium absorption. BD's need at least 95 degrees to digest food but 120 is far too hot. 110 is really the max and that's more a baby temp. 95-105 is perfect. As far as feeding wild caught insects, please don't. It is very likely to contain parasites and or pesticides (I was actually a little upset that this article suggested that) As far as the being illegally caught, it's up for debate. There was a time when it was legal to export from Australia. And now for the venom. I find this highly suspect. They just plain don't have the teeth for it. Venomous animals have two longer fang like eye teeth. These teeth have channels or grooves in the back to allow the venom to flow down the tooth and into it's pray. BD's do not have these teeth as they are omnivores and there would be no reason to inject venom into plant matter. The saliva may have adverse effects on food items but that would be about it. I blame the internet for having so much false information. beardeddragon.org has great, sound advice if anyone would like to learn more.

Hello,

Thank you for your interest. Please note that my article and response is based on my experience and the research of colleagues (30+ years as a zoo-based and field herpetologist, etc., please see link ti bio in OP) and not on "the internet".

Oxalic acid in spinach and cabbage combines with Calcium to produce Calcium Oxalate, an insoluble salt that cannot be utilized by most vertebrates. Ca oxalate salts have also been implicated in kidney damage. The most thorough research has been conducted with captive mammals and people, (but see link re green iguana work). The above does not apply to any appreciable degree to Kale. Kale has long been used as part of the diet of herbivorous reptiles and mammals in major zoos; this was the practice during my career with the Bronx Zoo, and remains so. All animals were subject to autopsy upon death, and any nutrition related [problems, or suspected problems, were investigated by the pathology, veterinary and nutrition departments. Please see this article
http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...70a.pdf&code=f8cb618ef9dd3be30efbe7a12d05dd39 for further info; kale reference is several pages in. the article refers to green iguanas, but the information is, as far as we know, applicable to bearded dragons. Kale may be used as outlined in the OP.

The Venom information is now well-established and accepted by the professional herpetological community. Please be aware, for the safety's sake of readers and yourself, that your statement above, re the structure of the teeth of venomous animals, is inaccurate and incomplete as regards snakes and lizards. Please see this article for some background on the original research regarding lizard venom glands. Early evolution of the venom system in lizards and snakes : Nature. Accurate information on venom delivery in reptiles is quite easy to find, but please let me know if you need a reference.

Wild-caught invertebrates are used by many major zoos (light traps, filed plankton, termite traps, seined crayfish, snails, etc.) and private keepers (40+ years in my case), as are certain vertebrates (minnows, shiners), following the precautions mentioned in the original post. Parasite lifestyles and secondary pesticide toxicity are quite detailed subjects; an introduction may be found here http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...-as-reptile-and-amphibian-food-some-concerns/.

The export of Bearded Dragons from Australia was outlawed in 1960; they were extremely rare in US zoos prior to that time, and rarer still in private collections. Some descendants may of course survive. The vast majority in the trade today arose from animals smuggled out of Australia after the 1960 ban had been imposed.

Bearded dragons can reach appropriate temperatures when basking at 105 F or thereabouts, assuming basking time is sufficient. If a thermal gradient is provided, higher basking temperatures are also appropriate; providing a gradient may be difficult in most home enclosures, given their size, so lower temperatures may be more practical.

"Oh dear" and "die need" are not appropriate; please refrain from such in the future, thank you, Frank

 

[SC Geckos]

Good stuff Frank. Thanks for posting.

 

[bronxzoofrank]

Good stuff Frank. Thanks for posting.

My pleasure, Brda, glad you enjoyed...I may have double-posted, sorry, could not fig how to delete, best, Frank

 

[morphmom]

*Edit*

 

[Zak Lemon]

My Beliefs based on science

I believe that many people think that bearded dragons have venom is because of the commercialization of the so called "venom" of the komodo dragon which is actually only mucous within the saliva that has degenerative effects and is very easy to become infected and to give off the rash appearance of being venomous. When it is by no means venomous by standards of venomous which is when an animal has a hypodermic like device in which it delivers it's venom into the lymphatic system. The komodo dragon does not have this. It does as I state have the special mucous. However, this is how many of the venomous reptiles evolved from that of non-venomous nature. So I believe and theorize that people believe that the bearded dragon has this same trait only on a lower scale of potency. This might be true but they are not however venomous.